How do North Korean awards hit the market?

[Lapa]

Guys,

That still does not explain the industrial quantities of some orders (eg Order of the flag) that available for just a few dollars. I don't believe that they originated in North Korea...

Marc

[medals73]

Originally Posted by Lapa

Guys,

That still does not explain the industrial quantities of some orders (eg Order of the flag) that available for just a few dollars. I don't believe that they originated in North Korea...

Marc

But how common is the Order of the Flagf? If you look in the Sessler & McDaniel book, you see numerous pictures of people (and not just senior generals) with multiple-multiple OoFs, essentially plate-armored in OoFs.

I take your point, but it seems to be given out very freely (for such a senior order).

[Esteban_cool]

Originally Posted by medals73

... it seems to be given out very freely (for such a senior order).

The awarding criteria for this order is so broad that you can get it for anyting, and I mean anything, from courage shown in the face of the imperialist enemy to outstanding work quotas (let´s say, 2-3 pounds a week given the actual situation:weird) in extracting turnips.

[medals73]

Originally Posted by Esteban_cool

The awarding criteria for this order is so broad that you can get it for anyting, and I mean anything, from courage shown in the face of the imperialist enemy to outstanding work quotas (let´s say, 2-3 pounds a week given the actual situation:weird) in extracting turnips.

True. Producing turnips is fighting the imperialist enemies.

:D

The real question remains (as given in the topic here): How do they get out? Answering that may require more knowledge of the DPRK than any of us will ever have.

[Esteban_cool]

Back in another post I mentioned refugees and fishermen. Now, in Asia is quite known that both of them do smuggle quite large amounts of stuff everywhere (This happens especially at fluvial markets). When I lived in Japan they broadcasted lots of documentaries where they tried to permeate the north korean borders (frontiers, ideological, cultural, and so on) and it was quite hard, but not impossible. They also showed flea markets in chinese towns near to the NK border with tons of books, posters, watches, pottery... and people available. Some of those items were transported by the fishermen, met their chinese counterparts at the Yalu River and swiftly exchanged the goods by trinkets, food, watches, movies, etc., other goods were hidden inside bags, sacks, fish boxes, clothing... They did not say anything about bribing the border guards, but they did mention that lots of them defect each month -and unfortunately- most of them were shot by their own comrades to get an extra rise in their pitiful salaries. The ones who survive exchange their stuff as soon as they can to the chinese dealers.
Refugees who make it to Japan through chinese smugglers also share part of the black market, and they do get a good profit there.

But I got the gut feeling that most of the stuff in China are, if not fakes, stuff given to korean war veterans.

[charlet]

Originally Posted by medals73

But how common is the Order of the Flagf? If you look in the Sessler & McDaniel book, you see numerous pictures of people (and not just senior generals) with multiple-multiple OoFs, essentially plate-armored in OoFs.

I take your point, but it seems to be given out very freely (for such a senior order).

Ed, what does state the Sessler about these ugly and common vertical pinback variations? Are they in the book as crude as they are sold in ebay for 5 or 7usd? Are they really specified as widespread?

[medals73]

Most awards have a variety with the vertical pin (and many have a horizontal pin variety too) in addition to the Soviet-style and Soviet-manufactured screwback. The Order of the National Flag, for example, is given in 9 types and multiple sub-varieties (see below). While this classification may be a bit excessive and/or compulsive, it indicates the substantial variation in manufacture. Their discussion of the 3rd class OoF, just that class of that order, takes up 30 pages in the book. By Comparison, Cabral gives this order in all classes just 4 pages and Boik gives 6 pages to the OoF in all classes.

And we must be careful not to overestimate awards to Chinese for the war. While reliable numbers are predictably elusive, they show the Order of Soldier's Honor, 2nd class, as having been awarded 112,170 times to Koreans and 6,349 times to Chinese and estimate wartime OoF 3rd awards at 51,527 to Koreans and 22,509 to Chinese.

I know that (some) Soviet collectors like to discern fakes everywhere (and they may be there) but (at least before this book) has there really been enough interest in Korean awards and have they carried so much market value that faking them would be repaid? They tend to be either very very common or very very obscure. Faking the hero stars is one thing (and I have no dpubt that has been done), but faking an OoF 3rd class?! The book, by the way, addresses the issue of fakes rationally and based on evidence and serious observation.

Sessler and McDaniel borrow the rarity codes from the Red Bible and most things seem to be toward either extreme. Just to take as an example the OoF 3rd class:

Neck star - 5

Screwback:
T1 - 5
T2 - 2
T3 V1 - 3
T3 V2 - 2
T3 V3 - 2
T3 V4 - 5

Horizontal pin:
T4 V1 - 2
T4 V2 - 2
T4 V3 - 2
T4 V4 - 2
T4 V5 - 2

Vertical pin:
T5 V1 - 3
T5 V2 - 3
T5 V3 - 2
T5 V4 - 2
T5 V5 - 2
T6 V1 - 2
T6 V2 - 2
T6 V3 - 1
T6 V4 - 1
T6 V5 - 1
T6 V6 - 1
T6 V7 - 1
T6 V8 - 1
T7 V1 - 1
T7 V2 - 1
T7 V3 - 1
T8 V1 - 1
T8 V2 - 1
T9 V1 - 1

They estimate 990,000 numbered OoF 3rd class awards and they cannot guess at the number of unnumbered badges. For reference, the 2009 DPRK population is estimated at 23,906,000.

[charlet]

Originally Posted by medals73

The book, by the way, addresses the issue of fakes rationally and based on evidence and serious observation.

I can't approve any further! Thanks for this answer.

God, I need this book!

[Esteban_cool]

We must not forget neither that North Korean government in the recent years has sent some of their own population to work for pitiful salaries in Siberia and Vladivostok to start paying the external debt they have with Russia since the cold war. The first NK awards I got were, according to the collector who sold them to me, sent from Vladivostok.

I can PM the source to anyone interested, for I will not post it here to keep the topic on track.

[January]

I liked the suggestion earlier in this thread that the DPRK government is itself deliberately producing a surplus of awards for resale. Given that they've been known to manufacture methamphetamine, US 100-dollar bills, and Scud missiles with the intention of selling them abroad, I can't imagine that they'd hesitate to churn out extras of something that they were already making if they saw profit in it. (They're really hard up for money, as I understand it.) And a crate of awards wouldn't raise the sort of eyebrows or incite other nations nearly as much as, say, a freighter of Scud missiles headed to Syria or a boatload of heroin headed to Australia would (and have).

That said, the really reasonably-priced awards that we've been seeing often appear to have been worn and circulated. I suppose that it could be noted that, if we count active, reserve, and paramilitary, the DPRK has the world's third largest military, larger than even that of the US (if we only count active troops, they're number four, but I would expect that the reserve and paramilitary troops also receive awards, and, judging from the photos that we've seen, they aren't stingy about handing them out). That would make for a lot of awards being issued.

Issued or not, though, I'm inclined to lean towards the DPRK themselves producing the bumper crop of DPRK awards that we've seen. Possibly one of the few things that they can produce that people will actually line up to buy, LOL.

One thing that I have noticed about the eBay awards is that the quality is noticeably lower than that of old, 1950s DPRK awards known to be genuine. This could just be due to a change in the country of manufacture--as I understand it, 1950s awards were made by the Soviets, whereas current awards are produced either within the DPRK itself, or possibly the PRC. I attach an image that shows an eBay Soldier's Honour (left; no date stated by seller) and a known-authentic 1950s Soldier's Honour (right). Again, I'm not saying that the one on the left is fake, only noting that the quality of manufacture seems to have dropped quite a bit. If someone has one of the two DPRK awards books handy (I have neither), they can probably identify whether the one on the left at least looks like the current award does.