Fake Documented Groups of Orders - Page 2

Tal Inbar · 09-25-2002, 11:49 AM

Just adding to the above:

1. Fake black patina is obvious (especially on BK)
2. Where is the date in the OK for the order of Kutozov?
well, what a day - may 6 1953, TWO orders the same day...
3. Again, the path is repeated - simpe awards first (Oh, sir, they are missing...) and the big ones down below.

I think - Most likely the BK is a fake, and the entries in the OK - are faked for sure.

Tal

AlexF. · 09-25-2002, 01:05 PM

Hi,
I totally agree with Ed, and won't repead what he already stated so nicely. Just to add, Kutuzov IIIcl. is definitely a fake, for many reasons. The scan of BK doesn't allow to determine anything for sure, it's just too small and lacks details.
I have a couple of Kutuzov's IIIcl, different variants (though all screwbacks), some with Pauls COA, it is apparent that yours doesn't look even close to any of mine, when it comes to collar details, hair, hairlines inside the tower, the concentric circles on reverse, and of course, the mint mark.
Hope you didn't pay for this "group" yet...

Alex.

sovvisor · 09-25-2002, 02:35 PM

i´m sorry but I agree with the rest of the crew. The ink is the same as I´ve seen on many fake entries in medal and order books and also on NKVD documents lately.

Nota Bene · 09-25-2002, 03:35 PM

Gentlemen,

You seen to be forgetting about the Khmelnitsky, which I think is also a fake.

Alexei

Tal Inbar · 09-27-2002, 05:41 AM

Alexei - note my reply, I didn't forget BK...

I would like to post an opposite situation:

The Higher awards are gone, and two lower are present:

Tal Inbar · 09-27-2002, 05:44 AM

BTW, I am unfamilliar with this style of writing "Al Nevski":

Ed Maier · 09-27-2002, 07:05 AM

Tal,

I'm assuming that you are posting this picture as a fake set as well, so I might be restating the obvious, but I don't like it either. Granted, it is strange to see the lower end items there, but only the Lenin is original for the book, and it may have been added as well into a blank book. The Lenin and book are 1951 issue (probably Long Service). The Nevsky would be 1944-45, and its in different ink, so it was added after 1951. The Red Banner and Red Star are post war but should be for around the mid 1950s, but received five years apart, but they are also added to the book in the same ink. I also do not like the style of stamps and writting for any of the awards, although that doesn't mean they are incorrect as a lot of 1950 books have strange writting. If I had to bet money, I would say that the awards were added to the book to make the available lower end medals more attractive because of the Lenin and Nevsky.

Just my opinion,
Ed

Nota Bene · 09-27-2002, 03:41 PM

Tal,

Just to add to what Ed have said, you are absolutely right about "Al. Nevsky". That's weird!

Alexei

Nota Bene · 09-27-2002, 04:15 PM

Oooooops! Sorry!

Quote:

Originally posted by Tal Inbar
Alexei - note my reply, I didn't forget BK...

new world · 09-27-2002, 06:38 PM

Guys,

Thank you so much for the input on the Kutuzov/BK group!

I was sure that the doc was an outright fake, but had my doubts about the awards.

But again, if the awards were to be authentic - there is no reason to fake the doc - they would be selling for good price without the doc.

09-25-2002, 11:49 AM	#11
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	Just adding to the above: 1. Fake black patina is obvious (especially on BK) 2. Where is the date in the OK for the order of Kutozov? well, what a day - may 6 1953, TWO orders the same day... 3. Again, the path is repeated - simpe awards first (Oh, sir, they are missing...) and the big ones down below. I think - Most likely the BK is a fake, and the entries in the OK - are faked for sure. Tal __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

09-25-2002, 02:35 PM	#13
sovvisor Bearer of the Red Star Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Uppsala Swden Age: 49 Posts: 229	fake i´m sorry but I agree with the rest of the crew. The ink is the same as I´ve seen on many fake entries in medal and order books and also on NKVD documents lately. __________________ sovvisor

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09-25-2002, 01:05 PM	#12
AlexF. Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 65	Hi, I totally agree with Ed, and won't repead what he already stated so nicely. Just to add, Kutuzov IIIcl. is definitely a fake, for many reasons. The scan of BK doesn't allow to determine anything for sure, it's just too small and lacks details. I have a couple of Kutuzov's IIIcl, different variants (though all screwbacks), some with Pauls COA, it is apparent that yours doesn't look even close to any of mine, when it comes to collar details, hair, hairlines inside the tower, the concentric circles on reverse, and of course, the mint mark. Hope you didn't pay for this "group" yet... Alex.

09-25-2002, 03:35 PM	#14
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Gentlemen, You seen to be forgetting about the Khmelnitsky, which I think is also a fake. Alexei

09-27-2002, 07:05 AM	#17
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 55 Posts: 203	Tal, I'm assuming that you are posting this picture as a fake set as well, so I might be restating the obvious, but I don't like it either. Granted, it is strange to see the lower end items there, but only the Lenin is original for the book, and it may have been added as well into a blank book. The Lenin and book are 1951 issue (probably Long Service). The Nevsky would be 1944-45, and its in different ink, so it was added after 1951. The Red Banner and Red Star are post war but should be for around the mid 1950s, but received five years apart, but they are also added to the book in the same ink. I also do not like the style of stamps and writting for any of the awards, although that doesn't mean they are incorrect as a lot of 1950 books have strange writting. If I had to bet money, I would say that the awards were added to the book to make the available lower end medals more attractive because of the Lenin and Nevsky. Just my opinion, Ed

09-27-2002, 03:41 PM	#18
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Tal, Just to add to what Ed have said, you are absolutely right about "Al. Nevsky". That's weird! Alexei

09-27-2002, 06:38 PM	#20
new world Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC, USA Posts: 1,086	Guys, Thank you so much for the input on the Kutuzov/BK group! I was sure that the doc was an outright fake, but had my doubts about the awards. But again, if the awards were to be authentic - there is no reason to fake the doc - they would be selling for good price without the doc.

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