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Soviet Orders Physical Characteristics, History, Types/Variations, Identification, Collecting Stories, anything relevant to the collecting of authentic Soviet Orders (Ордена СССР) is here. |
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#21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Illinois - U.S.A.
Age: 46
Posts: 1,023
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Charlet, can you explain to me what you meant by "retained by the State"
Thanks, Rusty.
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"Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193 |
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#22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: St Petersburg, Russia
Age: 63
Posts: 2,397
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Hi Rusty,
In France (like in quite a few other countries), the state has a "right of pre-emption" of goods that have a cultural or historical significance for the country. It is not unlike current Russian law for one. In the case of Marshal Koenig, one of only 3 French generals made Marshal in WWII (the others being Marshal de Lattre de Tassigny and Marshal Leclerc de Hauteclocque), his awards are of such significance for France and French history that the Ministry of Culture has decided to disallow their sale to private collectors, and has instead acquired them to preserve them "forever" in a museum, most likely the Army Museum in Paris. Koenig won the battle of Bir-Hakem, which, if memory serves me well, was the first time Rommel's Afrika Corps was stopped on their way through the northern part of the African continent. This battle is much less known than the later ones involving British and/or US troops. Marc |
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#23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 1,086
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Marc,
Thanks for the clarification. In that case, it's not clear to me why would the government allowed the awards go to the auction? Wouldn't it be just easier for everyone to make a deal with the family and pay them what they wanted? From the reports that Charlet provided, the total value of Marshals awards is withing 100,000 euros, which should not be a big deal for the stateof France, especially in case of a person of such historical significance. The fact that the State was about to retain the award explains the why prices were so low - why would anyone bid if you are not going to get the awards anyway? William |
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#24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Illinois - U.S.A.
Age: 46
Posts: 1,023
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Lapa,
Thank you for the 411. The little tid-bits are what make us better collectors! Rusty.
__________________
"Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193 |
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#25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Germany
Age: 49
Posts: 791
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Hi William, I'm not sure coz I don't know very well the procedure, but the representant of the minsitry of culture is an anonymous bidder amongst the assembly. It is sure it is easier to negociate with the family an indemnisation before the stuff goes in an auction. Maybe the family can refuse to negociate with the state, hopping get more money by an auction. Habitually, an representant of the state is a normal bidder, and if a very rich bidder raises prices too high, the piece can get away from the hand of state. "Pre-emption" is maybe an emergency procedure, maybe are there others negociations for indemnisation. I'll try to get some infos on the procedure. You do not have such things in USA? If Jean-Marie Messier (at the time of his splendor) would have wanted to buy one of Eisenhower souvenirs, should the governement have the procedure blocked?
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Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed) |
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#26 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 37
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Suvorov 2nd class
I need help. Is there anyone who can tell me observed weight of Suvorov 2nd class screwback, not the book value?
Early suspension pieces were replaced with screwbacks, but should the screwback sn#125 have letter D for duplicate? Last question, what is the good price for it with the orders book? I am open for suggestions. Oleg |
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#27 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 65
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Oleg,
if you're offered a screwback 2nd class sn#125, good for you. It's a reissue for the suspension type. These were most probably exchanged by the mint for the Victory Parade (06/1945), at least, all of the ones I've handled, were replacements. There will be no 'D' for duplicate, because it is not (the original wasn't lost, but turned in). PM me for more info, concerning pricing, it would help if you could email scans of it and of the book. Cheers, Alex. |
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#28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Illinois - U.S.A.
Age: 46
Posts: 1,023
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I'm speechless...
One of the "Big Guns" has just sold a Order of Suvorov 1st Class!!! Does anyone know what it sold for? Who might have bought it? Here's his Description: ORDER OF SUVOROV - 1st Class. (RARITY R6!) Serial Number: 313 - New "highest observed" for the type. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity from Paul McDaniel (one of the authors of the book: P.McDaniel and P.Schmitt "Comprehensive Guide to Soviet Orders and Medals"), very high 8 out of 10 condition rating. Issued to Lieutenant-General Buhovetz G.K., a recipient of another 1st Class Order - Order of Kutuzov 1st Class #185. Set also includes: a) Copy of the Military Personal File! b) Copies of Official Archival Research, with personal data, all of the awards, occupied positions (beginning from 1920-21), etc. Provenance: Published in the Journal of the Orders and Medals Society of America, Vol 43, No. 8, August/September 1992. Tom Lifka "Collecting Soviet State Awards - Part IV". Excellent condition with medium patina. Price: SOLD Extremely Rare Highest Military Order, with most given to Marshals and 3-4 star Generals, who, being already Generals in 1940's, were not likely to live up to the 1977, when Soviet Laws changed and allowed relatives to keep the Order in the family (before that, it was to be surrendered, together with most other awards, to the Soviet State Defense Ministry)...
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"Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193 |
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#29 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florida, USA
Age: 58
Posts: 40
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Agree with other estimates
I have been specifically collecting former USSR for approx 6 years. In that time, I have only seen one Suvorov 1st go... and it was for 26K.
My question to ponder - will the value come down with the markets?...at least in the U.S.? I say this because, two years ago...a decent Suvorov 2nd (with provenance) would go for anywhere from 2600 to 2800 USD (from reputable dealer). I purchased one at that time to a Col. who lead a Brigade during the battle of Berlin. I think those prices have fallen off a bit in recent times, and one can get a similar award for approx 2300 USD. Anyone agree/disagree with this comment? Dan
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Dan S. Florida, USA |
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#30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 1,086
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Suvorov 1st class.
Opinions and sincere admiration are appreciated :) William |
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