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Soviet Orders Physical Characteristics, History, Types/Variations, Identification, Collecting Stories, anything relevant to the collecting of authentic Soviet Orders (Ордена СССР) is here. |
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03-12-2002, 05:57 PM | #21 |
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I think you MUST update McDaniel right now...
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03-13-2002, 08:29 PM | #22 |
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Paul confirms what I said before regarding 8th and 9th awards of Red Banner: “I have it from a very reliable source in Moscow that no #7, #8 or #9 Red Banners were ever manufactured”. With all due respect, his source is not exactly correct regarding 7th award. As I mentioned before, there was one holder of 8 orders of Red Banner and about 10 of 7 awards. I don’t how many of them received Red Banners with number “7”. I don’t think it’s vital information, but if anybody wants to sponsor, it can’t be researched thru Russian Military archive in Podolsk. I know Red Banner with “7” and serial number 1 was awarded to major-general Burtsev Mikhail Ivanovich. Also, I know collector from Moscow, who had original Red Banner with “7”. He got it from the family of the holder and it came with original award book.
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03-13-2002, 10:08 PM | #23 |
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Eugene,
I was a little confused when he said that in his message. I replied asking if he had discovered something after his book went onto the market which made him believe these awards do not exist, as he clearly writes that a number 7 with serial number 9, and a number 8 with serial number 4 exist. There is usually a 1 day lead time for replies from Paul, so maybe tomorrow he will reply. Did I understand you correctly when you say that you know one person received 8 red banners ( numbers 2-8 ) and about 10 people who received 7 ( numbers 2-7 )? How would we be able to get this specific information and would it be very expensive? That would be the only source of information that would solve this.
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03-13-2002, 10:38 PM | #24 |
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Art,
Check my first reply regarding number “8”. A number “8” with serial number 4 doesn’t exist. I don't know if "7" with serial number 9 exists, but it may. It was only one person who had eight Red Banners and his eighths Red Banner didn’t have number “8”. It was regular Red Banner. I will try to explain. If person had five Red Banners, it’s not necessary he had “2”,”3”, “4” , and “5”. He could have first four regular Red Banner without numbers and last one was “5”. Or it could be he had first three regular and last two “4” and “5”. Or all of them without numbers. That’s why even it was about 10 people who had seven Red Banners it doesn’t mean all of them had Red Banner with number “7”. I don’t know how many of them had N7. So, there is nothing to solve. Only if you want to know all names of holders who had Red Banner N7. I have mentioned one name. I can get another. To find out all of them could run a few hundred. I can sleep well without this information. |
03-14-2002, 10:21 AM | #25 |
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Dr. Herfurth also lists in his 1987 large book about soviet military awards on page 90 Burtsev (airforce) as recipient of the No. 1 Red Banner "7" in the year 1967 and then Pstygo (airforce), Koshanov (tanks), Gorelow (airforce) and Koshedub (airforce) as other recipients of a "7". So we have already 5 names.
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03-14-2002, 02:29 PM | #26 |
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Shishkov and Muzalevsky list eight names of holders of seven Red Banners. This list is not full but it's a start. The problem is not to get these names. The problem's to find out how many of them had their seventh award with number "7". It might be two or might be all of them.
The name of Kojedub is among those. He was a famous soviet ace, three times HSU, marshal of aviation, who shot down 62 enemy aircrafts. He has died in 1991. I have his picture from 40s and 50s. I am trying to find his picture from 80s to see if his seventh award was with number "7". But the fact is Red Banner with number "7" was manufactured and no awards with "8" and "9". There in nothing to solve. |
03-14-2002, 03:58 PM | #27 |
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I just phoned with Herfurth, Berlin.
The "8" he photographed might be a "original" fake from the Moscow Mint (private collection, Munich), he thinks. He never saw a real "8", but why shouldn't they made some in 25 years time. Some fakes from the mint - "5" and also "8" and "9" - are at the market - rather flat back and fake patina. The SU-Marshalls had several stars for their different uniforms and specially Zhukov had some. The figure of 200 seems to be correct under this aspect. Herfurth will investigate about the Red Banners and inform me in 2 wheeks. To sum up: Nobody has ever seen a real "8" and five times more stars, than marshalls. Regards from Vienna and greetings from Berlin. |
03-14-2002, 05:32 PM | #28 |
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Excellent work Eugene and Christian..this is the kind of information that'll make this forum great.
Christian, perhaps next time you phone Dr. Herfurth, you can extend our thanks for answering our question. Also, if he converses in English ( I've never met him or emailed him ) please invite him to the forum. His opinions are always welcome here. Art
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03-14-2002, 06:21 PM | #29 |
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Thanks for the compliments and I will foreward them to Herfurth.
Dr. Herfurth might speak english, due to the fact that his catalogues are in german and english. I asked him today, when he his going to install e-mail. But he told me, that he will not install it, because everybody can reach him via telephone in the evening and he prefers to speak personally. I also asked him about the theoretical market price of Tito's great soviet award and he thinks the minimum will be USD at 1.500.000,- and it can achieve several times this amount at an auction, if somebody really wants this item. Regards from Vienna |
03-14-2002, 08:38 PM | #30 |
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Last and final information regarding number “7”, “8”, and “9”. Paul’s source was correct! All those holders of seven Red Banners received regular Red Banner order, not with “7”. Red Banner “7”, “8”, or “9” never, I repeat, N E V E R were manufactured. I found out this today.
To prevent next traditional question from “honest members of the forum”: “why shouldn't they made some in 25 years time?”, I’ll give a “smart” answer: “because they did not!” |
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