Fake CheKa/NKVD/KGB Documents - Page 3

Tal Inbar · 08-23-2002, 08:48 AM

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Nota Bene · 08-23-2002, 02:53 PM

Tal,

Can't really say anything about this one, except that the hand-writting is very similar to one of the previous IDs posted here.

Alexei

Here's another fake from the same seller:

otlichnik · 08-26-2002, 03:54 AM

Greetings all.

A few comments on the IDs. I agree that the KGB ID is nothing but a cheap joke piece. The KGB Distinguished service badge award books are also bad copies of very poor quality.

However, strangely enough, most of the rest of this dealer's stuff appears genuine. I have picked up a few things from them - with a return option. They were good - proper paper, realistic aging, proper data and photos, etc. I even got one of the numberless NKVD docs - for cheap. I am also quite sure it is genuine or it is the best fake ever. It is very had to age a paper doc in a realistic manner - no ageing or heavy aging everywhere is easy. But to have the edges and spine worn realisticly, some age/stains but not overall, etc. is quite hard. The writting on these genuine ones is all different (and as an aside I did have formal training many years ago in handwriting analysis and fraudulent document detection in a course for law enforcement investigators).

Now some are coming out from the same oblast or krai office with serial numbers very close - that does not bother me as someone obviously has grabbed a bunch from a state file. These things were all supposed to be returned after use and most come from state files.

Even the lack of serial number does not bother me too much. I agree it makes faking a pair convenient and that the KGB ones are fake and that some are suspicious. But I have seen two now in person that were bang on. They all come from post-war issue awards and I think (just my theory) that they come from a state file of unissued docs - that is that in the end they were issued other badge or medals instead.

As a parallel I have seen Polish award docs (for WWII medals) for sale from a Soviet state file - they were all name and signed but unissued for various reasons - person dies, person not found, person arrested, etc. In this case the reasons were all written on the docs in pencil.

Who knows.

Shawn

otlichnik · 08-26-2002, 04:11 AM

Tal,

I replied on some of this under the Fakes forum. There is nothing inherently wrong in any of these IDs. They all look ok. Of course, I would demand a return option and give them the "finger" test before deciding to keep them. They look well aged though. If I was oing to go to a lot of work to fake it I would do SMERSH or KGB or something like that and get $200+ not around $50.

Shawn

PS Sadly I think 90 of SMERSH docs out there are fake.

Nota Bene · 08-26-2002, 11:12 AM

Shawn,

When you have a moment could you please post here the good ones. I'd really appreciate it.

Alexei

Nota Bene · 08-26-2002, 11:39 AM

Gentlemen,

This seller sure knows how to make ugly scans! As Shawn has mentioned they look OK, but I have a gut feeling they are fakes. The same seller has a bunch of those documents, and the hand writting on some fakes and "OK" ones looks very similar. Besides genuine documents cost more then $45-50. I'd be very cautious about bying them. Just my opinion.

Alexei

makov25 · 11-06-2002, 01:05 AM

Currently on ebay. Looks good, but it is fake.

look at the picture

looks familiar? He is not Sorachentsev Fedor Semenovich his name Goryunov Mihail Vasilyevich

one more

otlichnik · 11-06-2002, 03:08 AM

What an incredible stroke of luck that you have the other docs!!! Now, you are likely correct and someone has used the old photo to make a new fake doc - although they have done a lot of work as it looks good and appears well aged.

Just to play Devil's advocate though, I wonder if there is any chance that it is legit and he went by different names? We know this happened with 1st Chief Directorate - foreign spying - guys but I don't know about interior. I have a set of docs and awards to an OGPU/NKVD-GUGB/NKGB/MGB, guy who won the Distinguished NKVD badge by a NKGB decree. After the war he served in a Soviet Embassy in the Middle East under a fake name - unfortunately there is no ID with this fake name. The vendor told me once he had the guys passport in the fake name but had sold it before I came along to buy the rest of the set. Anyway, it shows that in some cases it happened.

A very long shot. Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is almost always right - a fake. But I would love to see the doc itself.

Is it from the same vendor you bought yours from??

Shawn

Tal Inbar · 11-06-2002, 04:39 AM

Great observation. Why don't you contact the seller???? I would LOVE to hear the explenation...

see:
http://soviet-awards.addr.com/forum/...=&threadid=687 for more "finds" of that dealer.

makov25 · 11-06-2002, 08:19 AM

I have in my possesion many more documents and photographs of this man. He was NKVD driver. He started his career by personally escorting Feliks Andmundovich Dzerzinskiy. I recieved all of my material on this man directly from his family in the Ukraine. The family had come into possesion of these items when Russia collapsed. They were able to obtain the majority of material on this individual from the muzeum.

11-06-2002, 04:39 AM	#9
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	Great observation. Why don't you contact the seller???? I would LOVE to hear the explenation... see: http://soviet-awards.addr.com/forum/...=&threadid=687 for more "finds" of that dealer. __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

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08-26-2002, 03:54 AM	#3
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Greetings all. A few comments on the IDs. I agree that the KGB ID is nothing but a cheap joke piece. The KGB Distinguished service badge award books are also bad copies of very poor quality. However, strangely enough, most of the rest of this dealer's stuff appears genuine. I have picked up a few things from them - with a return option. They were good - proper paper, realistic aging, proper data and photos, etc. I even got one of the numberless NKVD docs - for cheap. I am also quite sure it is genuine or it is the best fake ever. It is very had to age a paper doc in a realistic manner - no ageing or heavy aging everywhere is easy. But to have the edges and spine worn realisticly, some age/stains but not overall, etc. is quite hard. The writting on these genuine ones is all different (and as an aside I did have formal training many years ago in handwriting analysis and fraudulent document detection in a course for law enforcement investigators). Now some are coming out from the same oblast or krai office with serial numbers very close - that does not bother me as someone obviously has grabbed a bunch from a state file. These things were all supposed to be returned after use and most come from state files. Even the lack of serial number does not bother me too much. I agree it makes faking a pair convenient and that the KGB ones are fake and that some are suspicious. But I have seen two now in person that were bang on. They all come from post-war issue awards and I think (just my theory) that they come from a state file of unissued docs - that is that in the end they were issued other badge or medals instead. As a parallel I have seen Polish award docs (for WWII medals) for sale from a Soviet state file - they were all name and signed but unissued for various reasons - person dies, person not found, person arrested, etc. In this case the reasons were all written on the docs in pencil. Who knows. Shawn

08-26-2002, 04:11 AM	#4
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Tal, I replied on some of this under the Fakes forum. There is nothing inherently wrong in any of these IDs. They all look ok. Of course, I would demand a return option and give them the "finger" test before deciding to keep them. They look well aged though. If I was oing to go to a lot of work to fake it I would do SMERSH or KGB or something like that and get $200+ not around $50. Shawn PS Sadly I think 90 of SMERSH docs out there are fake.

08-26-2002, 11:12 AM	#5
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Shawn, When you have a moment could you please post here the good ones. I'd really appreciate it. Alexei

08-26-2002, 11:39 AM	#6
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Gentlemen, This seller sure knows how to make ugly scans! As Shawn has mentioned they look OK, but I have a gut feeling they are fakes. The same seller has a bunch of those documents, and the hand writting on some fakes and "OK" ones looks very similar. Besides genuine documents cost more then $45-50. I'd be very cautious about bying them. Just my opinion. Alexei

11-06-2002, 03:08 AM	#8
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	What an incredible stroke of luck that you have the other docs!!! Now, you are likely correct and someone has used the old photo to make a new fake doc - although they have done a lot of work as it looks good and appears well aged. Just to play Devil's advocate though, I wonder if there is any chance that it is legit and he went by different names? We know this happened with 1st Chief Directorate - foreign spying - guys but I don't know about interior. I have a set of docs and awards to an OGPU/NKVD-GUGB/NKGB/MGB, guy who won the Distinguished NKVD badge by a NKGB decree. After the war he served in a Soviet Embassy in the Middle East under a fake name - unfortunately there is no ID with this fake name. The vendor told me once he had the guys passport in the fake name but had sold it before I came along to buy the rest of the set. Anyway, it shows that in some cases it happened. A very long shot. Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is almost always right - a fake. But I would love to see the doc itself. Is it from the same vendor you bought yours from?? Shawn

11-06-2002, 08:19 AM	#10
makov25 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: LYONS IL Age: 54 Posts: 21	I have in my possesion many more documents and photographs of this man. He was NKVD driver. He started his career by personally escorting Feliks Andmundovich Dzerzinskiy. I recieved all of my material on this man directly from his family in the Ukraine. The family had come into possesion of these items when Russia collapsed. They were able to obtain the majority of material on this individual from the muzeum.

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