Red Banner.

[Nota Bene]

Alex,

It is of course speculation on my part, but I have seen some very nice "MRs" and they all had at least some enamel flaking, usually where the enamel meets the silver. This one is flawless. I understand about the lighting, and I took enamel on the star as a "point of reference". Besides I do have some experience scanning those :) I believe enamel on the banner should be either almost the same dark color or lighter and a little "milky", but not this bright and translucent, like on a late issue suspension piece. At least these are the two variartions in color I have seen.

Good point about the discrimination! Paul does not authenticate altered awards.

Alexei

Originally Posted by AlexF.

Well, Alexei, it's hard to tell about the enamel, scans are small, lighting is not uniformed and centered, etc. I don't rule out that the enamel is perfect AND original, I have a couple of such orders myself, although, there are collectors, who believe that early order of Red Banner cannot have perfect enamel, by definition... One thing in relevance to the order in question, though, somehow, this dealer never gets COA's for these Red Banners (which are very unusual in such shape!), but gets them for other, more commonly found orders, that cost the same (Nevsky #6725, for instance)...
Just wonder why such discrimination?

Thanks,

- Alex.

[AlexF.]

You're absolutely right about the enamel colors, Alexei! Just to add some more to my point, which you seem to agree with me on ("...Paul does not authenticate altered awards..."), earlier Red Banners, even up to first var. of 'monetny dvor' (2XXXX range) actually exibit slightly darker enamel on a banner, in comparison to all of the later issues, I'm sure you know that, given the number of them you've handled... :D Somehow, from discussing the theory of when the gold-plating on Red Banners started, we traversed to proving that this particular order has a good chance of being completely re-enameled (good job, with real enamel, of course, but the color gives it away), and then, freshly gold-plated. :confused:

Don't you just love our hobby?

Cheers,

- Alex.

[new world]

Originally Posted by AlexF.

... Somehow, from discussing the theory of when the gold-plating on Red Banners started, we traversed to proving that this particular order has a good chance of being completely re-enameled (good job, with real enamel, of course, but the color gives it away), and then, freshly gold-plated. :....

If that's the case here - to ask quite high amount of $$$ - $590 - for this Red Banner with so many modifications/repairs is a bit too much...

Wouldn't you say?

William

[Dolf]

Gentlemen,

Reading page 82 of "The Comprehensive Guide to Soviet Orders and Medals", I'm a bit confused about the Serial Numbers Mr. Mc Daniel lists for the ORB Type 3 and its Variations.

For example, for Type 3, Variation 1, he states that the SN goes from 84,000 to 186,000-191,000.
Then for Type 3, Variation 2, he states that the SN goes from 186,000-191,000 to 288,000.

What does it really means? That the ORB having SN between 186,000 to 191,000 can either be a Variation 1 OR a Variation 2 ?!... :confused:

Then, even more strange is the fact that after stating that Variation 2 ends on SN 288,000, he also states that Variation 3 starts with SN 287,000 :confused:

Is this some mistake?!...

Again, when listing the SN for Variation 3, from 287,000 to 334,000-336,000, the same problem as with Var.1 and Var.2 happens again as he states that Variation 4 goes from SN 334,000-336,000 to 355,000!... :confused:

Can any of you experts collectors help with this?

Thank you very much,

Dolf

[new world]

Dolf,

There's nothing wrong with McDaniels classification and number ranges.

Overlaps between types exist and are quite common.

William

[Dolf]

William,

Thanks for the prompt reply.

But in that case a ORB with for example a SN 188,000, is it a Variation 1 OR a Variation 2 ?

Or that will have to be decided by other characteristics, such as the Mint Mark and the kind of reverse side?

Or can it happens that there is for example a Var. 1 with a SN 188,000 then a Var. 2 with a SN 189,000, then another Var. 1 with a SN 190,000 ?!...

Sorry if I'm missing something, I just don't get it... :cry:

Thanks a lot,

Dolf

[new world]

Dolf,

To tell the two types apart you would need to look at the differnce in the actual orders. The distiguishing prperties would be:

- shape of the mint mark (ie curved, straight line, etc),
- location of mint mark and serial number,
- shape of the reverse of the awards,
- etc.

Best regarsd,
William

[HuliganRS]

Dolf,

When Paul McDaniel wrote his book he missed alot of variations of RBL's.
Here's the current standing of Type 3 and the only Type 4.

Type Lowest Highest Short Description

T3V1 21,061 27,721 No MM
T3V2 22,911 23,280 MM is in the upper part
T3V3 27,632 28,150 MM is above center
T3V4 30,404 34,301 МОНЕТНЫЙ is slightly curved
T3V5 35,680 49,106 MM all the way at the top
T3V6 53,891 84,416 MM is in center
T3V7 80,214 134,320 Large MM
T4 135,463 195,383 Order is semi-oval

Rusty.

[Dolf]

Rusty,

Thank you very much my dear E... (the name we can't name here ;) ) "rival"
:D

Now it's clear, that's exactly what I wanted to know! Where have you got that information? I mean, is there some update to Mc Daniel's S/N somewhere, or other books with more recent information?

(I guess I'll have to let you win a few bids now... Just kidding... :D )

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!!!

Dolf

[HuliganRS]

Dolf,

Here's the whole list of RBL's:

T1V1 39 697
T1V2 938 2748
T2V1 2,068 11,469
T2V2 4,503 11,622 МОНДВОР
T2V3 9,021 13,267 МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР
T2V3S1 All over the Range МОНДВОР is hand engraved
T3V1 21,061 27,721 No MM
T3V2 22,911 23,280 MM is in the upper part
T3V3 27,632 28,150 MM is above center
T3V4 30,404 34,301 МОНЕТНЫЙ is slightly curved
T3V5 35,680 49,106 MM all the way at the top
T3V6 53,891 84,416 MM is in center
T3V7 80,214 134,320 Large MM
T4 135,463 195,383 Order is semi-oval
T5V1S1 195,745 254,774 Shield with star is propotional top/bottom
T5V1S2 195,745 254,774 Shield with star is slimmer at the top
T5V2S1 252,177 367,895 Shield is 9mm tall
T5V2S2 252,177 367,895 Shield is 10mm tall
T6V1S1 370,420 384,275 Horizontal line
T6V1S2 379,721 419,044 No horizontal line
T6V2 421,073 1,259,320 Horizontal line
T6V2S1 421,073 1,259,320 No horizontal line in center
T6V2S1a 506,834 512,312 7digit S/N starts with a "0"
T6V2S2 600,000 Range Large Engraved S/N

This information is collected from the Mondvor site (Russian).
If you have questions feel free to ask...

Rusty.