Serial numbers of awards and time period of awarding - Page 3

Ed Maier · 06-27-2002, 09:22 AM

Christian,

Your new information confirms what I said about the earlier serial number range on the Red Banner.
The Military Merit Medal was issued for 10 Years Long Service in 1944-45. The Red Star was for 15 Years Long Service issued in 1950 and the Red Banner is for 20 years in 1955-56. This would place him entering the service in 1934, give or take a year and that would correspond with his rank and position during the war.

He should also have a 30 and 40 Years of the Red Army and Navy medal in the group as he was still in the service when they were issued and only active duty military personnel received those medals. The 50 Years and later were issued to all veterans as well as active duty personnel.

If he does not have an Order of Lenin issued in 1960-61 for 20 Years service, he would have been out of the service before that time.

The OPW 2nd Class Type 3, doesn't really signify anything. Despite regulations about who received a 1st and 2nd Class, they seem to have been given indiscriminately. I have multiple groups with high level awards for combat where the person has a Type 3 OPW 2nd, not the 1st Class. I also have a Red Star group where the guy received a OPW 1st Class, type 3.

I can research the group for you. The Navy archives are strange so I do not know how long it will take.

I hope that this helps.

Eugene,

I do not understand your post. What do you mean that you have these Red Banners with the issue date of 1967? Do you have the research for these awards? If so, could you send me a scan of the award card? I would love to see this.

Thanks,
Ed

CZ · 06-27-2002, 10:31 AM

Ed,

it is really great, that you can do some research. I will try to contact the might be grandson Alex in the USA.

Kandybin got no Lenin, but of course 30, 40, not 50 and 60 years Red Army, Japan, 20, 30, 40, 50 years anniversary, Lenins-birthday (civil), 1977 the military veteran medal and 1948 the liberation of Korea medal.

From the 70s on the documents are issued in Riga, Latvia.

I like the submariner group, because it's Navy, submarine, comes with the academy badge and has also the rare and exotic Korea medal, last but not least it is from an authentic Captain 1st Rank.

I have no photos from Kandybin in the booklets - always stamped.

I have another - incomplete (I have only the 2 Red Banners) - "Japan group", airforce, major in 1946, who got Lenin:

Red Banner, #286944
Red Banner #2, #19404 (20 years)
missing:
Lenin, #326834 (25 years)
Red Star, #1778974 (15 years)
Red Star, #3573222 (30 years ?!?)
Combat Service, #1994020 (10 years)
also Japan medal,.....

On the photo in the booklet you see 1946 major Baranovsky with a Red Banner, Red Star, Combat Service and Victory over Japan.

So the captain only really earned the Red Star and the airforce major the Red Banner, but it was more difficult to achieve a Red Star in an SU-submarine during WW II, than to get a Red Banner in the airforce.

Regards from Vienna

McLenin · 06-27-2002, 01:09 PM

Hi Guys
I made a mistake:eek:
and thought I had better come clean before being found out and sent to the Gulag
I checked up and...

27357 17/01/42
This is actually a Red Star

82692 12/03/44
:confused: don't know where I got this from. Might have read it somewhere? I'll have another look.

However all the rest of the RB numbers I posted are OK.
phew!!
McL

Keith · 06-27-2002, 10:04 PM

Hello everyone,

Reading all of these numbers makes me think that this group could compile a very useful database to track the estimated dates of issue for the numbered awards. I have only one set of red banner and red star in the same group, and the order book to go with it. The date in the book is October 25, 1949, and the first order is the red star # 2896343, which appears to be consistent with the others. The red banner is not dated in the book, but the number #439567, is very close to Ed's issued November 5, 1954. As this is almost exactly five years later, is it a safe assumption that these orders were awarded for long service? I had originally thought this might be a fake entry made later by the dealer, but it seems unlikely that the dates would be so precise.

Keith

Ed Maier · 06-27-2002, 10:30 PM

Keith,

Your assumptions seem correct to me. This sounds like a long service group to me.

I am currently (my fingers are killing me) typing up a spread sheet with the number, date, unti, person information. It will take a long time to complete, but I've spent the last several days on it and there are some interesting patterns already. I'll keep people posted if I find anything.

Take care,
Ed

Doug · 06-28-2002, 12:27 AM

Ed,

Your spreadsheet sounds interesting. Tell us the fields and I'll work on a similar sheet weekend. Maybe a couple of us can merge our data with yours to get a bigger sample and thus possibly ID or confirm some trends. Sounds like fun.

Doug

McLenin · 06-28-2002, 04:07 AM

Hi All
I do have a list of about 30 Red Star numbers with dates ranging from about 20,000 to 3 million+.
I'll post this if anyone is interested. Let me know.

McL

CZ · 06-28-2002, 04:45 AM

Will be very useful - please post the list.

Regards from Vienna

McLenin · 06-28-2002, 05:02 AM

OK, here goes...

Order of the Red Star
23313 07/11/41
27357 17/01/42
106540 04/02/43
115793 25/04/43
128718 16/04/43
155981 08/02/43
286601 03/10/43
290888 12/10/43
328207 04/11/43
376895 20/10/43
679420 23/02/44
708952 05/08/43
712063 08/06/44
803642 10/02/44
830760 27/10/44
923207 03/11/44
958226 03/11/44
971486 03/11/44
992937 10/12/44
993690 19/12/44
1218185 29/03/45
1359683 14/05/45
1355369 03/03/45
1401227 23/05/45
1452740 11/05/45
1626590 07/06/45
2035054 26/04/45
2043599 06/11/44
2237761 19/05/45
2562179 13/06/45
2763415 06/11/47
2892962 20/06/49
2909850 24/06/48
2923696 17/05/51
3001481 17/05/51
3007835 23/02/45
3255036 05/11/54
3422149 18/12/56

As you can see most follow a similar trend with lots being awarded in 1945, but 3007835 is an odd one. This was awarded to a Lithuanian so I wonder if Soviet authorities were in no hurry at the end of the war to give out awards to certain republics, especially previously occupied ones. Maybe he was under investigation after the war and eventually proved innocent of whatever? Who knows?
I am quite gald to post this list. There is some real rubbish written on Ebay about dates of Red Star awards. I am sure I once saw a claim that a 600,000 Red Star suggested a date of a Battle of Moscow award, and a 100,000 Red Star suggesting a date of a Finnish war award.
:rolleyes:

I hope this is useful

Bye
McL

new world · 06-28-2002, 06:29 AM

McLenin,

Thanks for the numbers and dates. This is very useful.

May be we all can compile our data and have a common database for determining dates by SN?

06-27-2002, 09:22 AM	#21
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 55 Posts: 203	Christian, Your new information confirms what I said about the earlier serial number range on the Red Banner. The Military Merit Medal was issued for 10 Years Long Service in 1944-45. The Red Star was for 15 Years Long Service issued in 1950 and the Red Banner is for 20 years in 1955-56. This would place him entering the service in 1934, give or take a year and that would correspond with his rank and position during the war. He should also have a 30 and 40 Years of the Red Army and Navy medal in the group as he was still in the service when they were issued and only active duty military personnel received those medals. The 50 Years and later were issued to all veterans as well as active duty personnel. If he does not have an Order of Lenin issued in 1960-61 for 20 Years service, he would have been out of the service before that time. The OPW 2nd Class Type 3, doesn't really signify anything. Despite regulations about who received a 1st and 2nd Class, they seem to have been given indiscriminately. I have multiple groups with high level awards for combat where the person has a Type 3 OPW 2nd, not the 1st Class. I also have a Red Star group where the guy received a OPW 1st Class, type 3. I can research the group for you. The Navy archives are strange so I do not know how long it will take. I hope that this helps. Eugene, I do not understand your post. What do you mean that you have these Red Banners with the issue date of 1967? Do you have the research for these awards? If so, could you send me a scan of the award card? I would love to see this. Thanks, Ed Last edited by CtahhR; 12-08-2013 at 01:56 PM.

06-27-2002, 10:31 AM	#22
CZ Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 103	submariner group Ed, it is really great, that you can do some research. I will try to contact the might be grandson Alex in the USA. Kandybin got no Lenin, but of course 30, 40, not 50 and 60 years Red Army, Japan, 20, 30, 40, 50 years anniversary, Lenins-birthday (civil), 1977 the military veteran medal and 1948 the liberation of Korea medal. From the 70s on the documents are issued in Riga, Latvia. I like the submariner group, because it's Navy, submarine, comes with the academy badge and has also the rare and exotic Korea medal, last but not least it is from an authentic Captain 1st Rank. I have no photos from Kandybin in the booklets - always stamped. I have another - incomplete (I have only the 2 Red Banners) - "Japan group", airforce, major in 1946, who got Lenin: Red Banner, #286944 Red Banner #2, #19404 (20 years) missing: Lenin, #326834 (25 years) Red Star, #1778974 (15 years) Red Star, #3573222 (30 years ?!?) Combat Service, #1994020 (10 years) also Japan medal,..... On the photo in the booklet you see 1946 major Baranovsky with a Red Banner, Red Star, Combat Service and Victory over Japan. So the captain only really earned the Red Star and the airforce major the Red Banner, but it was more difficult to achieve a Red Star in an SU-submarine during WW II, than to get a Red Banner in the airforce. Regards from Vienna

06-27-2002, 01:09 PM	#23
McLenin Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bonnie Scotland Age: 58 Posts: 56	Oops!! Hi Guys I made a mistake:eek: and thought I had better come clean before being found out and sent to the Gulag I checked up and... 27357 17/01/42 This is actually a Red Star 82692 12/03/44 :confused: don't know where I got this from. Might have read it somewhere? I'll have another look. However all the rest of the RB numbers I posted are OK. phew!! McL

06-28-2002, 04:07 AM	#27
McLenin Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bonnie Scotland Age: 58 Posts: 56	Red Star Numbers Hi All I do have a list of about 30 Red Star numbers with dates ranging from about 20,000 to 3 million+. I'll post this if anyone is interested. Let me know. McL

06-28-2002, 05:02 AM	#29
McLenin Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bonnie Scotland Age: 58 Posts: 56	Red Stars OK, here goes... Order of the Red Star 23313 07/11/41 27357 17/01/42 106540 04/02/43 115793 25/04/43 128718 16/04/43 155981 08/02/43 286601 03/10/43 290888 12/10/43 328207 04/11/43 376895 20/10/43 679420 23/02/44 708952 05/08/43 712063 08/06/44 803642 10/02/44 830760 27/10/44 923207 03/11/44 958226 03/11/44 971486 03/11/44 992937 10/12/44 993690 19/12/44 1218185 29/03/45 1359683 14/05/45 1355369 03/03/45 1401227 23/05/45 1452740 11/05/45 1626590 07/06/45 2035054 26/04/45 2043599 06/11/44 2237761 19/05/45 2562179 13/06/45 2763415 06/11/47 2892962 20/06/49 2909850 24/06/48 2923696 17/05/51 3001481 17/05/51 3007835 23/02/45 3255036 05/11/54 3422149 18/12/56 As you can see most follow a similar trend with lots being awarded in 1945, but 3007835 is an odd one. This was awarded to a Lithuanian so I wonder if Soviet authorities were in no hurry at the end of the war to give out awards to certain republics, especially previously occupied ones. Maybe he was under investigation after the war and eventually proved innocent of whatever? Who knows? I am quite gald to post this list. There is some real rubbish written on Ebay about dates of Red Star awards. I am sure I once saw a claim that a 600,000 Red Star suggested a date of a Battle of Moscow award, and a 100,000 Red Star suggesting a date of a Finnish war award. :rolleyes: I hope this is useful Bye McL

06-27-2002, 10:04 PM	#24
Keith Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fairfax, Virginia Age: 54 Posts: 202	Hello everyone, Reading all of these numbers makes me think that this group could compile a very useful database to track the estimated dates of issue for the numbered awards. I have only one set of red banner and red star in the same group, and the order book to go with it. The date in the book is October 25, 1949, and the first order is the red star # 2896343, which appears to be consistent with the others. The red banner is not dated in the book, but the number #439567, is very close to Ed's issued November 5, 1954. As this is almost exactly five years later, is it a safe assumption that these orders were awarded for long service? I had originally thought this might be a fake entry made later by the dealer, but it seems unlikely that the dates would be so precise. Keith

06-27-2002, 10:30 PM	#25
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 55 Posts: 203	Keith, Your assumptions seem correct to me. This sounds like a long service group to me. I am currently (my fingers are killing me) typing up a spread sheet with the number, date, unti, person information. It will take a long time to complete, but I've spent the last several days on it and there are some interesting patterns already. I'll keep people posted if I find anything. Take care, Ed

06-28-2002, 12:27 AM	#26
Doug Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 45	Ed, Your spreadsheet sounds interesting. Tell us the fields and I'll work on a similar sheet weekend. Maybe a couple of us can merge our data with yours to get a bigger sample and thus possibly ID or confirm some trends. Sounds like fun. Doug

06-28-2002, 04:45 AM	#28
CZ Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 103	Please post the list Will be very useful - please post the list. Regards from Vienna

06-28-2002, 06:29 AM	#30
new world Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC, USA Posts: 1,086	McLenin, Thanks for the numbers and dates. This is very useful. May be we all can compile our data and have a common database for determining dates by SN?

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