Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhh!

[jefflgarrison]

Ok, so research on my oldest (#42.342 and nearly nicest) ORS medals came back as 'untraceable'.

So here is the deal. Since research is untracable, I guess I can make up any ol' story I want about the medal and no one can refute it! Of course, no one can verify it as well. Hense the "AAAARRRRRGGGGHHH' in the title.

So here is my question to those who have done a lot of research on various orders. What could be the possible reasons an order is untracable?

[new world]

If recepient was part of NKVD system - in this case research is usually unavailable as their archives are not accessible. This includes border troops, partisans, as well as security troops.

William

[desantnik]

Records simply destroyed, lost, missplaced, etc. I had a beautiful 4-digit red banner that I knew was awarded to a rehabilitated person due to the accompanying items. I submitted it for research twice with no result so I sold it. A year later I saw someone had succeeded and it was great. Too bad.

[Soviet]

Originally Posted by new world

If recepient was part of NKVD system - in this case research is usually unavailable as their archives are not accessible.

I guess they are sometimes available. I have a Red Banner screw back that was awarded to a NKVD member. I guess he wasn't so important, so they released his information. :)

[Dave]

There are a multitude of reasons an award might be unresearchable:

1. It could be a labor award. Wait, you say, Red Banners aren't labor awards! Well, I had one to a civilian film producer who made military-themed films PLUS his Red Star... both were unresearchable.

2. It could be a Navy award. These are STILL finicky, I'm shooting at a 50% research rate still.

3. It could be a "state security" award - be that GRU, KGB, etc. NKVD and Smersh awards are normally researchable. GRU and KGB ones aren't.

4. The documentation could have been lost or destroyed during the War. Remember, while many of the early awards were being handed out, there units were being destroyed. I'd venture to guess it was the rare administrative officer who would risk his life to break out of an encirclement to deliver award citations to the chain of command! Usually that stuff was either burned/destroyed/captured and no longer exists.

5. The citation could be classified and the archivist might not have access to it.

6. If it's a late award, the citation might have stayed with the personnel record of the recipient, and at the end of the USSR, never forwarded to Padolsk for their archives.

7. If the award was pre-June 1941, your chances of getting the citation drop dramatically. The award card might be possible, but I have yet to see a pre-June 1941 citation.

Thus, if you have an unresearchable award, there are quite a few reasons why the research might not come back. There's no "single" reason for an award to be unresearchable, but really many different possibilities - the 7 I listed above are only the most common.

Hope that helps

Dave

[Soviet]

I also heard from somebody that some collectors managed to obtain original citations and service records for their collection.

This will make research for the next generations impossible in those cases. :mad:

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Soviet

I also heard from somebody that some collectors managed to obtain original citations and service records for their collection.

This will make research for the next generations impossible in those cases. :mad:

Yes, in the late 90s if you wanted to spend the $$, the original citations could be pulled for you. I only saw this happen with HSU citations though. Interestingly, a bunch of citations must have also "walked out the door" without people researching awards as you see HSU citations pop up from time to time, mostly on sale because of the autographs on them (thinking of which, I think I might have seen a Red Banner or two as well...)

Dave

[Laurent]

Originally Posted by Soviet

I also heard from somebody that some collectors managed to obtain original citations and service records for their collection.

This will make research for the next generations impossible in those cases. :mad:

But sometimes you can obtain official copies from the archives which belonged to the awardee; this is really great!

[desantnik]

Originally Posted by Soviet

I also heard from somebody that some collectors managed to obtain original citations and service records for their collection.

This will make research for the next generations impossible in those cases. :mad:

I haven't been to the archives like Dave, but judging from other WWII-era paper I've seen, it's cheap and I don't know how long the records will last regardless.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by desantnik

I haven't been to the archives like Dave, but judging from other WWII-era paper I've seen, it's cheap and I don't know how long the records will last regardless.

Sadly, they'll last much longer in the Archives than they will out of the Archives. At least in the Archives they're relatively temperature controlled and in closed boxes, so UV-proof. If you have collectors who handle and frame up the documents, those will probably have a life a fraction of those documents that stayed in the Archives.

Of course, the thing that worries me about the Archives is a fire. If a fire started in one of the Archives buildings, all of that history would be GONE IN SMOKE forever. :(

Dave