Admiral USSR uniform (???)

Tal Inbar · 06-21-2003, 06:18 PM

The seller's words:

"Admiral of the Fleet summer white dress uniform; tunic, trousers and hat. Buttons dated 1981."

Of course, it is a fake.
It is supposed to be Gorshkov's uniform, but the ribbons are WRONG:

Gorshkov had 7 orders of Lenin, NO Suvorovs (he got Ushakov order 1st and 2nd class), Kutozov 1st (not 2nd as shown), Etc.

Tal

DougD · 06-21-2003, 06:29 PM

The insignia is for "Admiral of the Fleet of the USSR", a rank that was introduced in 1955. Only three guys held it; Kuznetsov, Isakov, Gorshkov. Chernavin, who replaced Gorshkov, was not given this rank, he was a full admiral of the fleet only. The insigna first makes an appearance in 1944 when Admiral of the Fleet Kuznetsov was given the insigina even though he did not actually get the full rank. As head of the navy he wanted a full "marshals" rank. He got the insignia, but was still just "Admiral of the Fleet".

These uniforms, copies of Gorshkovs, pop up all over; I sold 2, I have seen at least 10 others. They are made up today. They are fine for display ( one of my clients bought one to wear) but have little historical value.

DD

Tal Inbar · 06-21-2003, 06:33 PM

What is the price range for those copies? Are they made in the Ukraine?

Tal

DD, As THE expert on uniforms, I am courious - is it possible to have ANY type of uniform today in Russia?

T

DougD · 06-21-2003, 06:44 PM

The $900 the seller wants is ok, nothing great; $700 would be a good deal, even as an unissued warehouse uniform.

I am not sure I understand the other question? Do you mean made up in russia today or gotten
(real) for a price? Either way the answer is "yes".

So far every uniform has shown up for sale; 1945 parade marshal, 1943 parade marshal, 1943 parade diplomatic marshal, 1945 parade admiral kuznetsov uniform, etc.

The only uniform that has yet to show up is a M1940 marshal of the USSR parade uniform. No one has been able to get one yet, and I have not evern seen one in all the museums I have been to. I am sure one will show up someday.

DD

Christophe · 02-01-2004, 04:04 AM

Some comments on the fruit salad ...

* This Admiral of the Fleet, has no Nakhimov or Ushakov Orders or even Medals, but the Suvorov 1st Class and 2nd Class, as well as the Kutuzov 2nd Class...

* Some medals are badly placed : Liberation of Belgrade (a well known naval battlefield...), Lenin 100th Birthday...

* The Virgin Lands Medal (for an Admiral) is as well questionable as the Belgrade...

* The 1938 Jubilee Medal for XX Years of the Red Army is there... on a post-80s uniform...

* The 20 Years Irrep. Service Medal should not be there, as he has obviously received other more prestigious orders (Order of Lenin / Orders of the Red Banner) for long service...

* ...

* Any other comments ?...

Ch.

charlet · 02-01-2004, 06:33 AM

well, maybe I've got more interesting...in Paris, entrance of the marché Serpette, at the St-Ouen flea market, north of Paris, a guy sells for 8000-10000 euros each a msu parade jacket with visor cap, and an admiral of the su, both M45.....
saddly, can't produce photos...but msu has great cloth, but some little defects in the embrodery (impercepible holes, jetons lacking...), but great job. We all think to a m45 general "upgraded" ;) !! the liner cloth is new at the height of the cuff.
About admiral, great embrodery job, a pleasure to look at...couldn't notice default (not experimented enough of course)...only the visor cap was curious, with an entire brand new internal liner, no sweat diamond.

if Christophe can have a look...maybe with lapa I'll try to have some pics...

both are fakes in my mind, but knowing a tendancy to produce high-end fakes is still of interest

sebastien

Taz · 04-12-2004, 05:38 AM

Guys,
This Ribbon group is being described as a Soviet Admirals.
Can anyone Identify, if it's Original, the Admiral it belonged to?
It may also be interesting to try and identify all the various Foriegn Awards issued to him.

Tal Inbar · 04-12-2004, 05:46 AM

Another Gorshkov look alike.....

Taz · 04-12-2004, 05:52 AM

Hi Tal,
So a made up Ribbon Group?

Here are the Foreign Awards.

Tal Inbar · 04-12-2004, 05:53 AM

Your chice: Made up, or Gorshkov had 100's of ribbons sets and uniforms...

Please look at:

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/s...light=gorshkov

06-21-2003, 06:29 PM	#2
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 51 Posts: 2,060	Background The insignia is for "Admiral of the Fleet of the USSR", a rank that was introduced in 1955. Only three guys held it; Kuznetsov, Isakov, Gorshkov. Chernavin, who replaced Gorshkov, was not given this rank, he was a full admiral of the fleet only. The insigna first makes an appearance in 1944 when Admiral of the Fleet Kuznetsov was given the insigina even though he did not actually get the full rank. As head of the navy he wanted a full "marshals" rank. He got the insignia, but was still just "Admiral of the Fleet". These uniforms, copies of Gorshkovs, pop up all over; I sold 2, I have seen at least 10 others. They are made up today. They are fine for display ( one of my clients bought one to wear) but have little historical value. DD

06-21-2003, 06:33 PM	#3
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	What is the price range for those copies? Are they made in the Ukraine? Tal DD, As THE expert on uniforms, I am courious - is it possible to have ANY type of uniform today in Russia? T __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

06-21-2003, 06:44 PM	#4
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 51 Posts: 2,060	Price The $900 the seller wants is ok, nothing great; $700 would be a good deal, even as an unissued warehouse uniform. I am not sure I understand the other question? Do you mean made up in russia today or gotten (real) for a price? Either way the answer is "yes". So far every uniform has shown up for sale; 1945 parade marshal, 1943 parade marshal, 1943 parade diplomatic marshal, 1945 parade admiral kuznetsov uniform, etc. The only uniform that has yet to show up is a M1940 marshal of the USSR parade uniform. No one has been able to get one yet, and I have not evern seen one in all the museums I have been to. I am sure one will show up someday. DD

02-01-2004, 04:04 AM	#5
Christophe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Paris - Berlin Age: 61 Posts: 1,208	Fruit salad Some comments on the fruit salad ... * This Admiral of the Fleet, has no Nakhimov or Ushakov Orders or even Medals, but the Suvorov 1st Class and 2nd Class, as well as the Kutuzov 2nd Class... * Some medals are badly placed : Liberation of Belgrade (a well known naval battlefield...), Lenin 100th Birthday... * The Virgin Lands Medal (for an Admiral) is as well questionable as the Belgrade... * The 1938 Jubilee Medal for XX Years of the Red Army is there... on a post-80s uniform... * The 20 Years Irrep. Service Medal should not be there, as he has obviously received other more prestigious orders (Order of Lenin / Orders of the Red Banner) for long service... * ... * Any other comments ?... Ch. Last edited by Christophe; 02-01-2004 at 04:13 AM.

02-01-2004, 06:33 AM	#6
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	well, maybe I've got more interesting...in Paris, entrance of the marché Serpette, at the St-Ouen flea market, north of Paris, a guy sells for 8000-10000 euros each a msu parade jacket with visor cap, and an admiral of the su, both M45..... saddly, can't produce photos...but msu has great cloth, but some little defects in the embrodery (impercepible holes, jetons lacking...), but great job. We all think to a m45 general "upgraded" ;) !! the liner cloth is new at the height of the cuff. About admiral, great embrodery job, a pleasure to look at...couldn't notice default (not experimented enough of course)...only the visor cap was curious, with an entire brand new internal liner, no sweat diamond. if Christophe can have a look...maybe with lapa I'll try to have some pics... both are fakes in my mind, but knowing a tendancy to produce high-end fakes is still of interest sebastien __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

04-12-2004, 05:46 AM	#8
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	Another Gorshkov look alike..... __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

04-12-2004, 05:53 AM	#10
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	Your chice: Made up, or Gorshkov had 100's of ribbons sets and uniforms... Please look at: http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/s...light=gorshkov __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism! Last edited by Tal Inbar; 04-12-2004 at 06:12 AM.

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