The Soviet Military Awards Page Forum  
  • Serial Numbers Database 2.0
Enter Here

vBClassified Featured Listings
Echoes of War
Echoes of War
Seeking following Soviet campaign medals for ..,

Go Back   The Soviet Military Awards Page Forum > Soviet Awards Forums > Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics > Soviet Orders

Soviet Orders Physical Characteristics, History, Types/Variations, Identification, Collecting Stories, anything relevant to the collecting of authentic Soviet Orders (Ордена СССР) is here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-29-2002, 04:31 PM   #21
Nota Bene
Senior Member
 
Nota Bene's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New York USA
Posts: 2,296
Eric,

I believe the answer is simple - the 3rd class you have posted is genuine, and the 2nd class is not.

Best regards,

Alexei
Nota Bene is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-29-2002, 08:13 PM   #22
Brian
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12
Alexei,

I assume you are saying that you think that the order with serial #122446 has been gold plated to pass off as a 2nd class award. If this is the case, would someone actually go through the trouble to take a late numbered 3rd class award, gold plate it to look like a 2nd class award, and NOT alter the serial number to at least make it a plausable fake?

It's just awfully hard to believe that anyone would fall for this.

Brian
Brian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2002, 05:00 AM   #23
Chris
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 188
The highest number observed in PMcD book is 2951 for a 2nd class. I am sure there are some higher knocking around but not in the 122k league.

My opinion

If this is the case, would someone actually go through the trouble to take a late numbered 3rd class award, gold plate it to look like a 2nd class award, and NOT alter the serial number to at least make it a plausible fake?

er......yes
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2002, 11:27 AM   #24
new world
Senior Member
 
new world's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 1,086
Eric,

I think the explanation is more trivial.

Both orders look perfectly genuine.

In my opinion, the order in 26K range looks like it was awarded and was worn by the recepient - hence the heavy patina.

The one in 122K range was not awarded and preserved it's original look. What looks like gold plating is simply the shine on the order, some scanners make it look more like gold than silver.

Best,

William
new world is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2002, 11:30 AM   #25
Tal Inbar
Senior Member
 
Tal Inbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Israel
Age: 55
Posts: 2,302
I think so too. Some scans of the order of labor glory 3rd cl. are also have the gold look.
BTW, the patina is VERY heavy, maybe someone helped it's developement.

Tal
__________________
Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!
Tal Inbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2002, 01:56 PM   #26
Nota Bene
Senior Member
 
Nota Bene's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New York USA
Posts: 2,296
Brian, Gentlemen,

That's exactly what I am saying. The 2nd class is a fake - a gold-plated genuine 3rd class Order. Sometimes they do change the serial numbers on them or the entire back plate, sometimes they don't. In this case they took a genuine 3rd class Order with very high serial number that was never awarded and had it gold-plated to make an extra buck. I should also mention that the gold-plating is very sloppy, something you would never see on genuine 2nd class Orders.

My mistake... The piece pictured in not 2nd class, but 1st! LOL!

Alexei
Nota Bene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2002, 05:20 PM   #27
new world
Senior Member
 
new world's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 1,086
Alexei,

Why do you keep referring to the Order #122446 from the 2nd picture as to 1st class?

The number is too high and the dealer sells it as 3rd class. He's been selling these for years, he probably acquired large stock of non-awarded 3rd classes.

As Tal pointed out - the yellowish look on the picture is due to the scanner the seller is using. In reality is does not look that yellow.

William
new world is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2002, 05:57 PM   #28
Nota Bene
Senior Member
 
Nota Bene's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New York USA
Posts: 2,296
William,

Can someone ask the seller about it? I certainly could be mistaken, but I believe it is gold-plated. If it's not it's just another 3rd class piece.

I have found that listing, other scans from the same seller do not show any color distortions.

Alexei
Nota Bene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2002, 06:10 PM   #29
Tal Inbar
Senior Member
 
Tal Inbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Israel
Age: 55
Posts: 2,302
I know this dealer. I wouldn't IMAGIME him offering 2nd class, let alone 1st cl.

I think the logical explenation is that it is NOT his scan, and he used scanned 2nd class order. Olain and simple.

Tal
__________________
Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!
Tal Inbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2003, 08:58 PM   #30
Bobsammer
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Properly speaking, I did my best to show the micro-structure of orders in greatly understandable terms. As I could, I tried to avoid professional terms and expressions in argumentations that everything would be obvious without words. Of course, when examine the order under the microscope, we get clear idea about their structure, because we can see very close pictures during a long time, but afterwards you understand that your collocutor didn’t see this and as the saying goes: it’s better to show once than write 2 times.
Hope, that these pictures will be interesting for you and will help you in the future.

1.1- Blue enamel looks black.

1.2, 1.3 - On small pictures inside this file you can see the crystals similar to crystals appeared on "Friendship". The separate talk about the crystals will follow. What peculiarly can be very serious argument for objective proof of authenticity of amalgam gold-plating.

2.1, 2.2, 3.1, 3.2 - White enamel around letters had melted a little bit because of the high temperature.

2.3 - Candle end on white enamel of central medallion.

4.1 - Yellow color highlight lamp of microscope changes the color in yellow spectrum and as it is seen absolutely absorbed by blue enamel.

4.2 - Image was focused on enamel. Under 200% consideration of this picture we can see that instead of color run as on other enamel were formed the sinks, being situated along all gilded skirting. They alike for all: I, II, III - degrees "For service". They clean from remainders of amalgam. That confirms the secondary operation fixings of enamel after gold-plating.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg main_1.jpg (37.0 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg 1_2.jpg (32.7 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 1_1.jpg (27.8 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 1_3.jpg (23.4 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg main_2.jpg (42.2 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 2_1.jpg (27.5 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 2_2.jpg (35.2 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 2_3.jpg (31.7 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg main_3.jpg (37.2 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 3_1.jpg (40.0 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 3_2.jpg (27.1 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg main_4.jpg (22.9 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 4_1.jpg (33.5 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg 4_2.jpg (36.3 KB, 0 views)
Bobsammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Order "For Service To The Motherland In The Armed Forces Of The PMR". desantnik Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic Orders 10 02-11-2014 08:56 AM
Movement Regulations of the Armed Forces of the USSR Lapa History References 0 09-01-2004 07:18 PM


Beautiful 2 Reichspfennig Nazi Coin: Genuine Bronze Third Reich Germany WW2-era picture

Beautiful 2 Reichspfennig Nazi Coin: Genuine Bronze Third Reich Germany WW2-era

$7.88



US WW2 M3 Colt 1911 45 Shoulder Holster Premium Drum Dyed Leather marked JT&L 43 picture

US WW2 M3 Colt 1911 45 Shoulder Holster Premium Drum Dyed Leather marked JT&L 43

$38.99



US WW2 M1916 Colt 1911 .45 Holster OD Cotton Webbing Experimental M1Holster picture

US WW2 M1916 Colt 1911 .45 Holster OD Cotton Webbing Experimental M1Holster

$34.99



WWII WW2 USGI Model M1 Garand Bayonet for 1903 Springfield 1903A3 Knife Used picture

WWII WW2 USGI Model M1 Garand Bayonet for 1903 Springfield 1903A3 Knife Used

$59.99



German WW2 - Jewish Ghetto Coin  - 2 Mark..... picture

German WW2 - Jewish Ghetto Coin - 2 Mark.....

$6.49



U.S. WW2 M1 HELMET LINER picture

U.S. WW2 M1 HELMET LINER

$34.99



WW2 Airborne Clicker US Army 101st Spy Normandy Landings Prop Crickets picture

WW2 Airborne Clicker US Army 101st Spy Normandy Landings Prop Crickets

$15.99



US WW2 Springfield M1923 Garand Cartridge Canvas 10 Pocket Belt Khakhi Bandolier picture

US WW2 Springfield M1923 Garand Cartridge Canvas 10 Pocket Belt Khakhi Bandolier

$31.95



SURPLUS WW2 US M1 CARBINE SLING GUN STRAP ORIGINAL  picture

SURPLUS WW2 US M1 CARBINE SLING GUN STRAP ORIGINAL

$34.19



US WW2 M1 Helmet with Chin Strap Net Cover Army Military Reproduction WWII picture

US WW2 M1 Helmet with Chin Strap Net Cover Army Military Reproduction WWII

$36.09




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2011 Arthur G. Bates III