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The Researchers' Corner Research; the mysterious process which slowly sweeps away the passage of time to reveal the unique history within every award and unit.

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Old 04-11-2003, 06:12 AM   #41
slava1stclass
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GA Bradley and GEN Clark's Awards

To all:

I'm currently positioned to gain access to their original awards (Suvorov 1st and Kutuzov 1st for GA Bradley and Order of the Red Banner for GEN Clark). I will attempt to confirm the serial numbers and post.

Regards,

slava1stclass
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Old 04-11-2003, 09:03 AM   #42
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Here's a cool pic that was sent to me by a friend a while back. If it's off someone's website, please accept my apologies...

The pic is awesome as he has not only the GPW 2nd (with ribbon for it before his MOH ribbon!) but also the MOH (a Type IV) AND the British Military Medal! (only one of about 300 US soldiers to get that!) Quite an impressive group!

--Dave
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Old 04-11-2003, 10:19 AM   #43
Chuck In Oregon
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Here is the 1972 30-Year Anniversary badge. I also have the commorative stamp and postal stationery. This was a revered unit that every Soviet kid learned about.
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Old 04-11-2003, 03:54 PM   #44
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Chuck, it is curious you give here the badge of air regiment Normandie-Niemen, well known in France and almost very much known in former SSSR.
I found pics of soviet awards to these french pilot who did marvellous feats of war and raised country's honor, even if it led Soviets to oversize France's action in WW2.

#1 general Pouyade in 1960:
#2 capitaine Marcel Perrin in königsberg
#3 capitaine jacques André in march 1945 eastern prussia
#4 capitaine lemare
#5 the regimental flag
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Old 04-11-2003, 04:20 PM   #45
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German Awards

I think you can find a lot more French with German awards, which would be more indicative of their true leanings during that period.

The French resistance was a Hollywood myth to a degree…the general population hated their activities as it upset the boat and was considered communist inspired (fairly true with some cells)

On the whole the French engaged the Allies always when attacked by them (when they where Vichy France) whilst they surrendered immediately to the Japes and Germans.

The Brits had to bomb the French Fleet, as it would have been used against them. The French never forgave them for this but so what, the French have always hated the English and vice versa.

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Old 04-11-2003, 06:33 PM   #46
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Chris, I'm really surprised by your comment, not only as a french citizen but also as history teacher and teacher...
you put a feet a such a complex subject whose examination is just hardly finished, by historians of the world. As a testimony for trying being objective, I recommand you the bibliography of one of the best specialists about this subject, an US historian Robert O. Paxton...
I'm deceived by such a bunch of commonplaces...reality was quite more complex, between infamy, passivity and heroism...To give a heavy simplification, we say here 1940 France counted 5% collaborationnists, 5% resistants and all the rest passive...following the movement. First, try to be at the place of those people in 1940! (not only because they were my predecessors). Easy to discuss about military occupation in 2003 in a comfortable discussion...
I just want close this point by a short examination of yours statements:
1 - a lot of french with german awards: a crude nosense. No need to add more about the shame of collaboration. But you forget German meprised us enough to refuse granting of their awards; and Vichyst in their majority meprised German as well ...try to estimate such a calculation: collaboration to avoid total liquidation (false calculation I think).
2 I didn't know Hollywood showed great interest to french resistance!
3 The french pop didn't hated the resistance...they fisrt didn't understand it, supported it when they could...passivity was the key...remember what could be a civil in front of well-equiped soldiers...German executed ostages to punish resistance attacks...the result, like in Ukraine and Bielorussia, more hate against the occupator!
4 the feeling resistants were communists: Vichy's propaganda. Resistance gathered all politics, ex-Vichy chocked by Laval and Petain, anti-germanists, partisans of kingdom, socialists, christians, communists...3 years to unite them to give a debut of credibility to Churchill and Eisenhower!
5 French forces didn't sytematically attacked allies...the US landing in Africa didn't meet huge resistance from vichyst troops..
Try to go in Indochine where we were smashed by Japan, in Equatorial Africa, Syria. In Lybia we fought with Montgommery, and were smashed in Bir Hakeim to ease work for Monty...And ask my grandfather, saved by the Royal Marine when he was circled in Dunkerke with English in 1940!
Yes, Churchill ordered the smashing of the biggest part of french fleet in Mers-el-Kebir harbour to prevent a treason from new masters of France in 1940. When the french forces of Africa proved their fidelity to the allies, where did fight the remains of our fleet? in pacific with English! And we opened the fire with the US on normandy coast on the 6 of june.
Churchill and Roosevelt known how to measure french reliability...

6 the old anglo-french hostility...since 1066!!!!!! Mers-El-Kebir was a dreamed occasion for Vichy's propaganda.

So I think such commonplaces are not profitable. In spite of this long speech please don't find any aggressivity. My aim in this thread remains to complete this subject: soviet awards to foreigners. Normandie-Niemen was the unique and nicest occasion for french combattants to fight with the soviet, no need for a 2003 anonymous to deny the valour of these guys (one lives in Florida today!)

I forgot before this long speech I would hope not to say:

Marcel Lefevre, HSU, 2 red banners, 1 souvorov, 11 air kills, died of his wounds.
Two versions, one russian one french - sorry I'd like to find an English but these're original docs. Can translate (but they're here good Russian lectors)

that's all folks!
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Old 04-12-2003, 05:37 AM   #47
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HSU for foreigners

found in good Durov's book, p.66:
foreigners bearers of the title of HSU:
- Otakar Jarôs, CSSR officer in communist czekoslovaks troops;
-3 servicemen of polish army (Tadeus Kosciuzko unit?)
-4 pilots of french Normandie-Niemen;
-bulgarian generél Vladimir Stoyanov--Zayimov;
-spanish gard captain Ruben Ibarruri;
-german resistant Fritz Schmenkel.

I think that beyond the original real feat of courage those person were also made HSU as a political symbol. All these represent armies who fought on the soviet territory, directly next to soviet troops.
But about the English who achieved the risky convoys towards Mourmansk?
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Old 04-12-2003, 08:09 AM   #48
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Charlet,

Heros of SU book provides list of foreigners awarded HSU title (volume 2, page 846).
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Old 04-12-2003, 01:57 PM   #49
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sorry if a rushed against an opened door; I'd like to have this book. What state it? (should they be able to forgot US or british bearers for cold war reasons?)
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Old 04-13-2003, 01:36 AM   #50
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Dear Charlet

Very few Soviet awards went to the Allied forces. I beleive this is becuase very few Allied awards where made to the Soviet forces. When you look at the British awards to the Soviets it was mostly to HSU winners. When you look at the Soviet awards to British forces it was mostly to the Convoy runs and to Paiforce (the overland supply operation via Iran.

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