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The Researchers' Corner Research; the mysterious process which slowly sweeps away the passage of time to reveal the unique history within every award and unit.

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Old 06-22-2002, 08:21 AM   #1
REDMAXIM2001
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Dating Medals by serial #

Estimated friends of the forum:

I´d like info about the relation between serial # & fabrication dates of Orders & Medals. Particularly I´m interested in dating Order of Red Banner T2/V2 #75.583, Order of Red Banner T4/V1 #483.837 & Order of Red Banner of Labor T5/V2 #300.992.

In any way I´d like any kind of info about this subject. Thank you so much & Excuse, please, my HORRIBLE English.

Labor, Health & (peacefully) Revolution.

RED MAX
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Old 06-22-2002, 09:37 AM   #2
Eugene
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Order of Red Banner T2/V2 #75.583 - august- december, 1943
Order of Red Banner T4/V1 #483.837 - 1963 - 1968
Order of Red Banner of Labor T5/V2 #300.992 - 1954-1955
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Old 06-22-2002, 06:53 PM   #3
CZ
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Glory & Motherland

Gentleman,

this may work for these orders as confering dates, but doesen't work for "Glory", "Motherland" or any other awards with serial numbers, who went in large quantities to military units (or had been produced at once: "Glory 1c").

So, less action at a certain part of a "Front" and the military units may keep more "Glory"-orders, than other units.

Specially with a "Glory 1c" or a "Motherland 2c" the serial number gives no hint about the date of confering, when roughly the guy got the award.

What do you think about this?

Regards from Vienna
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Old 06-22-2002, 07:12 PM   #4
alconlon
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I agree with Christian in regards to Military awards.
I have a researched Order of Alexander Nevsky in which the officers record shows:

Order of Red Banner 120680 1943

Order of Red Banner 209276 1944

Order of Red Banner 70358 2/12/1945

Happy hunting.

Thanks,Al
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Old 06-22-2002, 07:51 PM   #5
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In researching over 700 groups of Soviet Orders, I have found that the serial number range/date of issue chart does not work in most cases involving any detailed infomration. The reason has already been mentioned above, and is an offshoot of the Soviet award system's structure. But in addition, you will find really strange anomolies that pop up from time to time, such as screwback Red Banners issued in late 1944 (on an active Front).

I have tried to chart the serial numbers, issue date of the award, unit of the soldier and awarding unit on a spread sheet to see if any pattern would show up. After charting the awards in about 70 groups, I gave up as it was crazy. I might try to complete this as I get some free time to see if a larger sample would reveal serial number ranges awarded by specific Fronts or units, but it will take some time.

Take care,
Ed
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Old 06-22-2002, 11:05 PM   #6
Doug
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Ed and all,

I've had a similar thought. I've been contemplating a spreadsheet or db that would capture the following serial number-based information by order from researched orders or groups:

Serial Number
Year Awarded
Month Awarded
Branch of Service
Front
Army
Corps
Division
Regiment
Combat or Long Service

My thinking is that as most orders were distributed in preserial numbered groups, there should be some trends that become apparent. Granted, I might need a pretty large sample size. I'm thinking that after a while, we might have a better idea of what awards were awarded to what front or army during what general time period. In addition, we might be able to discern blocks of long service awards, etc.. Perhaps years from now, with enough army and VVS information, we could also make assumptions as to what serial number series are missing and assume that these are series that belong to naval or political entities.

No doubt a big undertaking that might not ultimately prove anything but it's interesting to think about.

Just another Arizonan praying for rain...

Doug
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Old 06-23-2002, 04:57 AM   #7
REDMAXIM2001
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Thank you 4 info & interest in that thread.

Thank you 4 info & interest in that thread.

Well, I see this question about # & dates relationship is more complex that I suppossed...

Here there are three new questions (I´m obiously abusing from your lovely manners, but...)

Order of Labor Glory 3rd class #358.147
Order of Badge of Honor T4/ ¿V2 or V1? # 478959
Order of Glory 3rd class T2/V1 #277195

Thanks you again, gentelmen.
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Old 06-23-2002, 09:32 AM   #8
Ed Maier
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Red,

From my list, the Order of Glory 3rd Class #277,xxx would be a late 1944, early 1945 award. But then again, it depends on where it was awarded.

One interesting aside about Glory 3rds, in researching then, I have found that all (in my sample of 25 or so) post war (1948 or later) awards of Orders of Glory 3rd Class were awarded for severe wounds in combat. Most of the time, the soldier was disabled from the wound and never returned to combat or was discharged from the armed forces. This has been true every time that the only award received was an Order of Glory 3rd Class.

This is exactly the type of information that I have been gathering. Even with the large sample of awards that I have, its difficult to be able to discern information from the data. One of the problems in picking a pattern about the awarding unit, is that different awards were awarded at different unit levels. Some were authorized by regiment, some division, some corps, etc... Even when you are able to discover the particular units location at a particular time, you run into large scale transfer of units. The person might have won the award with one unit, then have been transferred to another before the recommendation was approved and awarded, and both units might have been transferred to different Fronts or put in the reserves during the process. This is especially true if you are looking at the 1941 to 1943 time period as the Red Army was in a massive state of reorganization from both internal (Stavka) and external (German) forces.

A pattern has not emerged with wartime long service awards either. Since they were awarded by the lower units (Military Merit Medals and Red Stars), they were handed out from the common stock on hand. Higher level long service awards (especially Lenins) usually went to old reserve soldiers who were not at the Front. Its only in the 1950s, that you begin to see blocks of Long service awards and they are the vast majority of the awards issued.

Good luck with your list. It's a long process.

Take care,
Ed

Last edited by CtahhR; 12-08-2013 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 06-23-2002, 10:11 AM   #9
REDMAXIM2001
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Thanks, Ed & Please GO ON

Your info it´s really interesting... & your hard Labor too...
I´d like you tell us some interesting conclussions & studies like that you refer about O fo Glory, Lenin, etc.

In Spain it´s very difficult to access info & books :(

Thank you

Red Max
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Old 06-23-2002, 10:58 AM   #10
Ed Maier
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Red Max,

I wish this information was in books. I have gethered it in the course of researching orders and medals for myself and my clients. I make copies of all the research I get, so I have the Award Cards and Citations of thousands of awards on file. My pile of research stands at over 1 meter tall now, so its a ton of infomration.

I hope to be able to publish this infomration some day.

Take care,
Ed
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