Ushakov Group

[HuliganRS]

Hey Gang,

I'm offered this group and would like the general concensus on it's authenticity!

It looks like a very impressive group, and the price is just right!

My main concern is Ushakov medal.

Thanks in advance,

Rusty.

[HuliganRS]

Ushakov

These are compressed images... I do have the mega-sized ones if it will help?

Thanks again,

Rusty.

[new world]

Rusty,

was this group awarded to a couple? I see some double jubilee medals.

I have doubts about the award book.

It looks like the last 4 awards were added to the book:
1) handwriting is different for first Red Star and the later 4 entries.
2) In this type 5 award book - why only the last entry in the book has the award date? Shouldn't they all have award/ukaz dates (different ones) on the next page?

There's no way all 4 awards were given on the same date.


Best,
William

[yolkin]

I have several questions/observations:

1) When did they start using the "ALL CAPITALS" stamp for Red Star awards? I think that the all-caps stamp is of a later variety (especially during the 1980s or Afghan years)

2) What are the date ranges for Medal of Ushakov? During WWII the Soviets awarded approximately 14,000 of these medals and then 1,000 + during the 1980s. The exact number of awardees was 16,080. Looking at the first entry in the awards book and seeing a high-numbered Red Star (3,311,820), makes me think that this may have been a "peace-time" award, and therefore may have been awarded shortly after May 1945. When did the 3-million range Red Stars began to be awarded?

3) When did the mint cease stamping the "Military Merit" medals with serial numbers? In total, USSR awarded 5,210,078 of these medals. The one in the orders book is of Type 2 Variation 2 (based on its serial number). COULD IT HAVE POSSIBLY BEEN AWARDED AFTER THE 3,311,820 RED STAR??

As far as the last 4 entries, William brings a good point...

Was the awardee a veteran of the Afghan Conflict?

Eric



Source of the awardee totals: MONDVOR

[Ed Maier]

I do not have an opinion on the group as its too hard to judge over the internet. But with the Order Book, I think I can answer a few questions of some others. One reason why this book is as it is, is that the medals were added to the Type 4 Order Book when he received his first Order (note, not medal, which would have been in a Medal Book). Since I can't see the date on the last Red Star, its hard to draw any other conclusions, but it is possible for this type of situation to exist.

Sorry for being so non-commital,
Ed M.

[Dave]

Rusty-

I wouldn't buy it unless I had a money-back guarantee on it, so if it researched out 'bad', I could return it. It could be right though... but that's a 'could'...

What I don't like is the awards that were added to the Red Star book. While it did happen that veterans would 'update' their newer award document with the numbers of the older awards, it is also (unfortunately a quick way for someone to add new awards into the group. (The addition of another Red Star, an Ushakov Medal, and a couple Military Merit medals would definately 'spruce up' an otherwise 'plain' Red Star group!)

One question of mine was what his unit was. Is the unit stamp on his Leningrad Defense medal a Navy stamp? How about on the Victory Over Germany, or the older medals?

To answer Yolkin's question, I have 3-million series Red Stars in my collection with award dates from the mid 50's though the 1960's. I also have unnumbered Military Merit medals that were awarded in the late 40's, so I would doubt that a numbered Military Merit would have been awarded after the 3-million series Red Star. Additionally, every late 70's/1980's award of the Red Star I've owned has had the "Red Star" physically written in the book, vice stamped. (That could be an anomoly, but that's out of ten groups with Red Stars from 1975 through 1992.)

If all the entries were correct, and I was a betting man, I'd bet that you'd find the following in the research:

-Military Merit 2627284 awarded in 44/45 for wartime activities
-Ushakov awarded in late 40's for wartime actions (I had a 12-thousand serial number Ushakov awarded in April 44, it would make sense to see a 14-thousand range one awarded in 46/47)
-Military Merit (without number) awarded in late 40's (or roughly 5 years prior to the first Red Star as his 10-year service award)

(All three of those would have been put into a medals book, vice an order book, which could be one way to explain why they are added in here later.)

-Red Star 3311820 awarded as his 15-year service award
-Red Star 3513892 awarded as an end-of-career award

(And that could also be the reason that the last Red Star is the only one out of the added four to have it's Ukaze date, since it was added directly to that order book...)

That's my hunch. If the numbers are right, it's a nice Ushakov group. But I'm still really cautious about that book! (I've been burned too many times with bad books!!!!)

My two cents worth... Nota Bene and some other guys more well-versed than I can probably give you a better appraisal.

--Dave

[HuliganRS]

ID

[new world]

I find it hard to believe that the person was awarded 3 medals and 1 order in just one year - from September 1955 to December 1956.

[Dave]

Originally posted by new world
I find it hard to believe that the person was awarded 3 medals and 1 order in just one year - from September 1955 to December 1956.

He wasn't. What happened (it looks like) is that he was awarded his first Red Star, and then when he was awarded his second Red Star, he simply had them write the medals into the order book in order to get rid of his medal book(s). It makes sense...

--Dave

[new world]

Dave,

I was not aware that you can get rid of those medal books, but you know better.

Now we have to determine if the Ushakov medal is real.