Group with "Service to the Homeland" and Red Star - Page 2

charlet · 05-19-2003, 05:34 AM

Well, I checked my s/n database and I found the red star number and the booklet number perfect for the year 1986, it goes perfectly in the series. But I’m suspicious for the VVS 3rd: the s/n is very high and kutsenko stated nr 107895 was awarded in february 1991...PMD states last numbers seen are towards 138000..????? I’d think it is one of the last pieces struck and non given, added artificially to this group (the writting is different). Any opinion gentlemen about the stamp?
For the medal certificate, I’d check if the stamp is identical or not (same rubber).

My opinion, sebastien

charlet · 05-19-2003, 11:28 AM

To alanirvine : your box is full !
To Newworld also: we discussed about an exchange of databases, I’m OK but I had forgotten the thing...If still interested with, please you and alanirvine post me your emails in order I join the doc (excell).
The stuff doens’t pretend to be exceptionnal; but it is based upon great work by anatolii kutsenko, and a few datas gathered...I did a database on 20 years victory medal documents! And found a coherent serie on 20 entries!! (paranoid man!)

JensF. · 05-19-2003, 11:33 AM

Many thanks Sebastien!
Is it possible to get a copy of that Excel Database too?

About the order booklet; is it possble that the second entry (homeland) was added later (officially) as he got the order? the booklet is from 1986 as he got the Red Star and the Homeland was added later.

charlet · 05-19-2003, 12:18 PM

no way without a research in russian files to confirm that...I only have a big doubt...the VVS 3rd is brand new with no patina and a high s/n. Kutsenko is reliable, but the probleme he has not a lot of entries for the last years 90-91...he states only two numbers in 88 and 90. The only way is to gather between us reliable datas and researches to complet. Now I've been collecting only for 4 years, and you should wait for advices from the other side of the sea from more rexperienced guys (stamp of VVS 3rd cl and infos on s/n...

Christophe · 05-19-2003, 01:56 PM

Hi,

2 or 3 remarks :

* It seems evident that the "Service to the Homeland" mention has been added later (officially or not ? That's the question...).

* What gives me an interrogation :
Was it the tradition or the use for the person filling the booklet to be the same one using the rotating tool and engraving the SN on the award ?
When I look at the award and the booklet, I have the strange feeling that the same person wrote both of them... I had in mind that the person using the rotating tool was engraving orders one after the other, and that the booklet was filled at a different time by someone different (regarding circumstances of the awarding..).
What do you think ? Is it correct ?

* Third point : the person using the rotating tool seems - in this case - not really familiar with this technique : just look at the two "0", and the beginning of the "2". The work of a beginner ? And not an official "specialist"... ?

Ch.

alanirvine · 05-20-2003, 06:44 AM

Charlet,

I emptied my box.

Alanirvine

charlet · 05-20-2003, 11:47 AM

Errr…guys, maybe I’m still a newbie hut i didn’t see how to join an external file to private mails of this forum. If not, pm-me your normal emails and the stuff will go (I’ll write from my classic mailbox outisde of this forum).
Salut christophe, I’m not sure about your hypothesis about rotatating tools engraving. I find the s/n on VVS 3rd correct, and nice engraving is not really easy to my sense. Only nice work is accessible to skilled worker of the mint...I think (correct me gentlemen) that the booklet is donne long after the negraving at the mint and engraving systematically done at the mint: the administration (miltary or civilian) receive the orders with s/n done at the mint. They can keep them during several years (or months during WW2 for red star or glory): a lenin engraved in the 60’ could be given ten years later by the local soviet...the administration then fill the booklet with the number of the order they find in the closet...

Christophe · 05-20-2003, 03:37 PM

Salut Sebastien,

Exactly what I thought !!! I agree. Thanks for confirming the process.
One more time, may be I'm wrong, but I have the feeling that the engraved SN and the reference inside the booklet have both been made by the same hand... But, maybe am I wrong...
That's why I look suspicious.

Ch. :confused:

Dave · 05-21-2003, 10:01 AM

I'm very suspicious about the group. I looked through my Homelands, but the latest award date is 1986, so I can't compare serial numbers. However, I've never seen one with a serial number that high issued (and I have had groups dating upwards to 1987-88 with them) BUT I have seen a lot of unissued ones with serial numbers in that range!

My gut feeling is that the award was added into the book, and it's an unissued Homeland.

--Dave

Dave · 05-21-2003, 10:03 AM

In regard to the engraving, I think that the engraving is okay. There are PLENTY of unissued, numbered, Homelands out there for $70-$80 each- there's no need to serial number another one, especially since it's an an unissed serial number range.

--Dave

05-19-2003, 05:34 AM	#11
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	Well, I checked my s/n database and I found the red star number and the booklet number perfect for the year 1986, it goes perfectly in the series. But I’m suspicious for the VVS 3rd: the s/n is very high and kutsenko stated nr 107895 was awarded in february 1991...PMD states last numbers seen are towards 138000..????? I’d think it is one of the last pieces struck and non given, added artificially to this group (the writting is different). Any opinion gentlemen about the stamp? For the medal certificate, I’d check if the stamp is identical or not (same rubber). My opinion, sebastien __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

05-19-2003, 11:28 AM	#12
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	To alanirvine : your box is full ! To Newworld also: we discussed about an exchange of databases, I’m OK but I had forgotten the thing...If still interested with, please you and alanirvine post me your emails in order I join the doc (excell). The stuff doens’t pretend to be exceptionnal; but it is based upon great work by anatolii kutsenko, and a few datas gathered...I did a database on 20 years victory medal documents! And found a coherent serie on 20 entries!! (paranoid man!) __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

05-19-2003, 12:18 PM	#14
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	no way without a research in russian files to confirm that...I only have a big doubt...the VVS 3rd is brand new with no patina and a high s/n. Kutsenko is reliable, but the probleme he has not a lot of entries for the last years 90-91...he states only two numbers in 88 and 90. The only way is to gather between us reliable datas and researches to complet. Now I've been collecting only for 4 years, and you should wait for advices from the other side of the sea from more rexperienced guys (stamp of VVS 3rd cl and infos on s/n... __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

05-19-2003, 01:56 PM	#15
Christophe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Paris - Berlin Age: 61 Posts: 1,208	2 remarks Hi, 2 or 3 remarks : * It seems evident that the "Service to the Homeland" mention has been added later (officially or not ? That's the question...). * What gives me an interrogation : Was it the tradition or the use for the person filling the booklet to be the same one using the rotating tool and engraving the SN on the award ? When I look at the award and the booklet, I have the strange feeling that the same person wrote both of them... I had in mind that the person using the rotating tool was engraving orders one after the other, and that the booklet was filled at a different time by someone different (regarding circumstances of the awarding..). What do you think ? Is it correct ? * Third point : the person using the rotating tool seems - in this case - not really familiar with this technique : just look at the two "0", and the beginning of the "2". The work of a beginner ? And not an official "specialist"... ? Ch.

05-20-2003, 11:47 AM	#17
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	Errr…guys, maybe I’m still a newbie hut i didn’t see how to join an external file to private mails of this forum. If not, pm-me your normal emails and the stuff will go (I’ll write from my classic mailbox outisde of this forum). Salut christophe, I’m not sure about your hypothesis about rotatating tools engraving. I find the s/n on VVS 3rd correct, and nice engraving is not really easy to my sense. Only nice work is accessible to skilled worker of the mint...I think (correct me gentlemen) that the booklet is donne long after the negraving at the mint and engraving systematically done at the mint: the administration (miltary or civilian) receive the orders with s/n done at the mint. They can keep them during several years (or months during WW2 for red star or glory): a lenin engraved in the 60’ could be given ten years later by the local soviet...the administration then fill the booklet with the number of the order they find in the closet... __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

05-19-2003, 11:33 AM	#13
JensF. Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 121	Many thanks Sebastien! Is it possible to get a copy of that Excel Database too? About the order booklet; is it possble that the second entry (homeland) was added later (officially) as he got the order? the booklet is from 1986 as he got the Red Star and the Homeland was added later.

05-20-2003, 06:44 AM	#16
alanirvine Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Santa Ana, CA USA Posts: 39	Charlet, I emptied my box. Alanirvine

05-20-2003, 03:37 PM	#18
Christophe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Paris - Berlin Age: 61 Posts: 1,208	Salut Sebastien, Exactly what I thought !!! I agree. Thanks for confirming the process. One more time, may be I'm wrong, but I have the feeling that the engraved SN and the reference inside the booklet have both been made by the same hand... But, maybe am I wrong... That's why I look suspicious. Ch. :confused:

05-21-2003, 10:01 AM	#19
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	I'm very suspicious about the group. I looked through my Homelands, but the latest award date is 1986, so I can't compare serial numbers. However, I've never seen one with a serial number that high issued (and I have had groups dating upwards to 1987-88 with them) BUT I have seen a lot of unissued ones with serial numbers in that range! My gut feeling is that the award was added into the book, and it's an unissued Homeland. --Dave

05-21-2003, 10:03 AM	#20
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	In regard to the engraving, I think that the engraving is okay. There are PLENTY of unissued, numbered, Homelands out there for $70-$80 each- there's no need to serial number another one, especially since it's an an unissed serial number range. --Dave

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