How did Soviets determine what award to give?

[Rick]

I have been confused for some time about how the Soviet Government determined what award to give to someone versus the heroic deed or action that person performed. Can anyone shed some light on this?

For example, I recently bought an Order of Glory third class with research. The research showed that the gentleman was later recommended for the Order of Glory 2nd class for additional deeds at the front lines. However, the response back from headquarters said that his deeds were so great that he was more deserving to receive the Patriotic War 2nd Class rather than the Order of Glory 2nd. ????? To me, it would seem that the Order of Glory 2nd class would have been a more prestigious award than the Patriotic War 2nd class. He ultimately received the Patriotic war 2nd class instead.

I have seen other examples of this. It seems the definitions of what you needed to do to receive a particular order were so similar I wonder who or what determined which one to give to a particular person. Patriotic war 2nd? or Order of Glory 3rd? or Battle Merit? or Red Banner?

Any comments?

Rick

[Dave]

Rick-

I have vague memories about this being discussed ages ago... Perhaps Tal or Eddie (the archive experts) can find that thread for us.

Until then, it was basically up to the unit or higher commander, depending on the award. When the Patriotic War order first came out, it was considered a VERY prestigious award, and I've seen research on PW's come back that were originally nominations for Red Banners, Lenins, etc. By the end of the War, PW's were more common, and from my experience were used less and less for combat valor/leadership. Likewise for the Red Star - before it was a long service award, most of them were for combat actions, but after the point at which it started being awarded for long service, I've seen fewer combat action citations.

Another consideration was the "political" aspect. A well-liked unit commander may be nominated for a high-end award such as a Suvorov or Kutuzov, whereas a less-liked one may only be nominated for a PW. The same goes for the enlisted. The troops weren't dumb... They knew that going home with a Nevsky on the chest versus a PW 2 had quite a bit more "clout" for a young officer! I have one group in my collection that has fantastic citations nominating the officer for the Hero of the USSR TWICE as well as a nomination for a Suvorov 3rd. The actual awards? A PW, Nevsky and a Red Banner!

Hope that helps!

--Dave

[Taz]

Guys,
I've had a look around without finding much on the actual Award Critaria, but Dave has hit the nail on the head in saying it was basically up to the unit or higher commander, depending on the award. This was also somtimes a bit controversial. I seem to recall a thread mentioning the awarding of an Ushakov medal or GPW II class, were the unit commander recomended the awarding of the Ushakov medal and his seniors said that a GPW would be more appropriate.
Or the double awarding of the Order of Glory 2nd class which was later exchanged for the Glory 1st class.

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=3085

As soon as I find anything else I post a link here.

Eddie.

[Lapa]

Guys,

I think that this topic has shown up a number of times under one shape or another. I am not sure if the reference I'm giving will help put it to rest for good, but let's give it a try.

In "Медали СССР" by Volodin and Merlay (1997), Annex VI on pages 278 to 281 lists the "Rights to award orders and medals of the USSR in the period of the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945 by members of the commanding organs of the Soviet Armed Forces". It is broken down by service (Infantry, Navy, Airforce, Artillery, PVO, Tanks and Mechanized forces); it then lists by level of command the orders and medals that could be awarded, and the ranks to which these could be awarded.

I believe this may close a few ongoing topics.

Marc

[Taz]

Hi Marc,
Thanks for that info.
Would it be possible to post that info, for example in the Research Corner, or is it too extensive?
Maybe if you could find the time you would like to post the relevent pages ( if allowed).
I'm sure that would help solve a lot of questions in the future.

Eddie.

[Dave]

Marc's post does bring up something that slipped my mind. Obviously there were different awards that went to different ranks; approved by different command levels; etc. However, I think the original question by Rick was more along the lines of "why did Sergeant X get a PW instead of a Glory?" Or, at least that's what I gathered.

Although I think it's been answered pretty well here, one other thing to note was that it's hard for us to compare citations to figure out who got what. We have no idea of the extenuating circumstances regarding the earning the award. Had they not slept for 48 hours? Was there four feet of snow? Was the enemy more resistant than your "normal" "fierce counterattack"? Things we'll never know that weighed greatly into the determination for the proper award for the action.

--Dave

[textorpmt]

In almost 18 years of military service, it has been my experience that the write up for the award has more to do with what award is given as the actual service or duty performed.

A good write up sells the medal to higher command. And in some cases, unfortunately, some commanders are much more or mush less inclined to write up awards than others. Award packages are a pain and some officers dont want the hassle. It's not fair, but it happens.

[Lapa]

Guys,

I have scanned the pages from "Медали СССР" but the files are simply too big to remain legible. I've tried to shrink them enough to get under the 50k limit in a variety of ways, but it is simply unreadable.

If someone has a technical solution to this problem, let me know.

Marc

[Taz]

Marc,
thanks all the same for trying, and the time and effort , if you like you can send them to me and I'll try with the various programmes that I have on my PC. But the chances are that I'll have the same results.

Eddie.