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General And Slightly Off Topic Talk Forum for exchanging ideas and talking about general issues without straying too far off topic.

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Old 09-08-2010, 05:43 AM   #111
EricFG
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

Interesting. I'd guess the buyer would have to provide some sort of reasonable and believable documentation to support their claim.
I dunno about the "destroy" part though...
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:07 AM   #112
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

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Interesting. I'd guess the buyer would have to provide some sort of reasonable and believable documentation to support their claim.
Either that, or the seller has to do it.
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:12 AM   #113
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

good thing which will contrain more "sellers " to be honest...

The customs could be involved in the process of destruction?
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:15 AM   #114
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

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good thing which will contrain more "sellers " to be honest...

The customs could be involved in the process of destruction?
What does honesty help when a buyer decides he does not want to pay for the Lenin order he bought from you, claims the item is fake, is asked to "destroy" the item (my guess, I do not think PayPal will establish destruction units) and has his payment refunded?
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:48 AM   #115
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

I started a response, along with quotes from the PayPal policies, then realized there is also the EBay policy to deal with, then decided not to wade through it all to figure it out. Modern scam - make "agreements" so complex and opaque, and default you to be bound by them by simply using a service (rather than understanding them).

There is this tid-bit however:

"10. Your Liability - Actions We May Take.

10.1 Your Liability. ...

Opt-Out. If you do not want to allow PayPal to reimburse eBay for your liability, you may opt-out by calling eBay at 1-866-643-0898. Your opt-out will be effective within 3 Business Days. If you opt-out then eBay will not use your PayPal Account to recover amounts that you owe due to an eBay claim that you lost. This opt-out will not affect other amounts that you pay to eBay using your PayPal Account (such as your eBay fees).
"

Seems like it might be a good idea to make the call. Doesn't help a PayPal SNAD claim though. At least I don't think it does...
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:23 PM   #116
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

I like the "fear factor" they seem to be trying to instill in people knowingly selling fakes. I also can see a great deal of room for abuse if the counterfeit item is not relinquished to some authority other than either buyer or seller. If Paypal gets a forged OGPU document, they will throw it away - presumably that is "destruction." As for high end orders and medals, that becomes tricky because without reliable proof that an Order of Lenin is fake and someone "destroys" (puts it in the trash) that is authentic, we will see some bad days for collecting awards.

At the same time, if no certification is provided that the counterfeit item has been "destroyed" then greed could make a person charged with destroying the item simply pocket it and try to resell it himself.

They will have to keep meticulous records of counterfeit items (serial numbers, name of the award, physical description, photos, etc) in order to prevent it from coming back up on eBay a year or two down the road.

Frankly, I see this as a PR move to try to cut down on sellers pushing fakes and buyers claiming fake when they can't pay and hoping to keep the award.

Too many variables...

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Old 09-09-2010, 05:20 AM   #117
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

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What does honesty help when a buyer decides he does not want to pay for the Lenin order he bought from you, claims the item is fake, is asked to "destroy" the item (my guess, I do not think PayPal will establish destruction units) and has his payment refunded?
a reputable dealer has some tools to answer to paypal, an obscure ukrainian/balt faker has certainly not these...
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Old 09-09-2010, 07:40 AM   #118
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

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a reputable dealer has some tools to answer to paypal, an obscure ukrainian/balt faker has certainly not these...
Indeed. How about collectors who sell items once or twice?
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Old 09-09-2010, 07:47 AM   #119
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

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Indeed. How about collectors who sell items once or twice?
It's only going to effect the honest person. They are the only ones who will actually follow the rules. The counterfeiter isn't going to be effected because what does he care? He'll just make a new account and do it again. There's always ways around rules and people find any way to wiggle through them.

In theory it's a good idea but it doesn't extend farther than that. They also don't go into detail about who has to destroy and such. If they don't, I don't see how this will work at all.

Very respectfully,

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Old 09-09-2010, 07:59 AM   #120
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Re: PayPal user agreement change, 13-7: "counterfeit" items

As with most PayPal/eBay "rules", I suspect this is in there merely in an effort to protect PayPal/eBay against any potential legal problems and not in any way to protect the buyers and sellers. As others have observed, these fine-sounding words stand no chance of being enforced.
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