Documented Group

[Esteban_cool]

Originally Posted by Will

Additionally, I read recently that, since the late 1940's, the DPRK has awarded over six million Orders! I'm thinking that they probably have not brought whatever register they have into the computer age, so if a fire ever does break out in whatever warehouse they store the records in (not unlike the fire at our military archives in St. Louis in 1972), we'll all be out of luck on the research front.

The first point makes a lot of sense, since I think we should assume that most of the chinese PLA volunteers were awarded NF IIIs and military merit medals. Officers, of course, were awarded IFOs.

You´re right , and not only fires, but one of the main natural disasters the DPRK has to face every year are not fires, are floods. According to defectors´ news websites, the floods are getting worse (and more frequent) every year due to the regime´s enviroment-unfriendly policies and deforestation. Thus, a bunch of old, forgotten papers stored in some old government or army building are also an easy prey for raging waters. (It seems I´m not too much of a poet :o)

[CtahhR]

The awardee is given 3 different dates of birth throughout the set (17th June and 27th June 1946 as well as the date in the 30's) but this is probably all down to a bureaucratic error. I have a Soviet set to a woman that has her name spelt wrong on half of her awards (Marija and Taisija) so it happens. I will be framing my DPRK orders etc. in the upcoming weeks including an Order of Kim Il-Sung type 2 with a low enough number and Hero of Labour with a low number and an additional 155 Korean orders and medals. I've bought a 5 foot by 3 foot flag (£3.29 delivered!) to pin them all on to and put behind "glass". I'll be photographing that later. I have a great number of photos to post here once I work out how the mobile phone talks to the computer etc..

[CtahhR]

I did receive a batch of Orders recently which were blood stained (I've had Korean items covered in all sorts of other things too) so I washed the blood off... and then yesterday when I was moving some orders in preparation for measuring for mounting and framing and a pin on the back of a order of the 40th Anniversary Of Victory In The Fatherland Liberation War went right into my thumb..... all the way to the bone! Now I can easily understand how some of the items I have received have blood on them. I will be a little bit more careful with them from now on as I had a very difficult time not getting blood on anything important. Fortunately it was a good clean pin and not a tired and rusty pin from an older or more abused order. I was very much in mind of that scene from John Carpenter's The Thing... NOT FUN!

[Will]

I asked about the birth dates simply because I have seen document groups sold on Ebay in which, upon close-inspection, it was evident that someone had altered certain Korean characters and/or the birth dates, presumably to conceal the actual identity of the individual to whom the awards were made.

155 Korean Orders and Medals?

That sounds like an expensive framing job !

[CtahhR]

There certainly are a good number of defaced DPRK items available with the obvious intention of the people or the family of the person staying anonymous. Most groups or awards will of course be most likely to come onto the market after the person awarded has died so the defacing of items is probably done by close family members such as the children. The current tally of my DKRP items is 154 Orders (9 Documented), 16 Medals and 7 Badges. I only started collecting them not too long ago but I'm eager to get my hands on more. There are certainly many many variations out there. My main focus of collecting has been Bulgaria of which I have 993 Orders and Medals about a third of them are documented or cased or both and I also have 100+ Badges and some other paperwork and a couple of award banners but I don't think I'm finished yet! As long as I have money in my pocket there will be medals to be bought!

[Will]

Here is an example from an Ebay seller who routinely offers awards with the documentation.

The medal was awarded in 1988.

The recipient was born in 1989, 1 year after the award had been given to him.

Amazing. :confused:

I wouldn't mind it, I suppose, if the seller let buyers know that the documents had been altered.

http://cgi.ebay.com/North-Korea-Fath...efaultDomain_0

[CtahhR]

It could be well possible from my understanding of the award system of that nation that someone was awarded an award but the document may be changed to show the award be an award of a child or grand child so when they take to the fore they have a chest to begin with. It may well be that the documents are altered within the state and not without.

[Will]

Originally Posted by CtahhR

It could be well possible from my understanding of the award system of that nation that someone was awarded an award but the document may be changed to show the award be an award of a child or grand child so when they take to the fore they have a chest to begin with. It may well be that the documents are altered within the state and not without.

Well, with all respect, we are speaking here of a document that shows an award being made before the recipient was even born. It wasn't awarded to a child, it wasn't even awarded to a fetus.

Beyond that, I once purchased a "set" of document and award from this seller. It was clear, upon examining the document, that it had been altered and, looking at his other offerings, I could then see that this was done with a number of the documents that he offered. In the item for which I posted the Ebay link, it looks to me, based on the different shades of ink, as though the birth date was altered from perhaps "1939" to "1989". Someone born in 1939 could have qualified for the medal that goes with the document. someone born in 1989 could not qualify for an award that was made in 1988.

And I have assembled a decent selection of books published in North Korea that contain numerous photographs of DPRK citizens wearing awards. That's why I obtained the books in the first place. And in no book have I ever seen photographs of young children wearing awards other than the official DPRK youth awards. So I don't really understand what you mean with the statement It could be well possible from my understanding of the award system of that nation that someone was awarded an award but the document may be changed to show the award be an award of a child or grand child so when they take to the fore they have a chest to begin with.

Admittedly, there is an enormous amount of information that is unknown about the DPRK and its awards, so any further information would certainly be appreciated.

[CtahhR]

From what I understand you can inherit the awards of your ancestors very much alike some of the pre-soviet Russian awards. It would seem to me that it would far cheaper to modify the original document to the new holder's name than to issue another document entitling the person to officially wear the item. Another thought I have had on the subject of modifying names and destroying numbers on DPRK awards is if these documents are being changed to stop persecution of the person's family of the original awardee would some of the names and dates be changed to someone that you wanted to get in trouble? I'm quite a happy person today as I've just picked up another 8 DPRK orders including another order of Kim Il-Sung. Now having a documented one though would be something else!

[Will]

I think that it is highly likely that the award documents that have been altered have had this done to try to protect the recipients or their families from prosecution.

It will be interesting to see what becomes of the prices of DPRK material.

Even as "rare" as some pieces are, I have observed the winning bids on Ebay dropping steadily. The first Order of Kim Il Sung (second version) that appeared on Ebay sold for over $1,000 as I recall. Several more have appeared since. The last one sold this week for about $700.

Similarly, awhile back a seller offered an Order of Freedom and Independence, first class, and it sold for about $1,000. One sold this past week for about $300.

It seems to me that as the limited number of collectors who are interested in DPRK material acquire an example of an award, the bidding lessens and the prices drop.

If the regime ever actually collapses, and even half of the six million Orders awarded by the DPRK show up in the collectors' market, it likely will drop most values to almost nothing.