U.S. Army Decorations Awarded to Red Army Personnel in World War II - Page 3

mcwirsk · 01-26-2003, 08:48 AM

Dear all

I would be interested to know what the "official" point of view was regarding the wearing of American (or British) awards in the cold war period. Col Galprin did not mention them in his 1950's documentation.

I see that a lot of Soviet Marshalls received American decorations. Did they stop wearing them. Tal, you are the the man for pictures!!!.

In the British army the order was given to take down decorations awarded by the now enemy. I have seen German awards given to South African troops for the 1906 Herero (German South West Africa) campaign been instructed to be removed in ww1. I have groups like this. In addition I have a ww1 Romanian award to a South African who was POW (at Tobruck) in ww2 and he did not receive instructions to remove the award in ww2. I don't think they knew waht it was. I have awards to a German officer in ww1 who moved to South Africa in the 1930's and joined up with the South Africans in ww2. I have seen pictures of him and he is not wearing his ww1 German awards in uniform, but I have seen pictures of him in the 1950s ( in civilian clothes) wearing his German awards and not his ww2 (British) awards. By the way at the end of ww2 he was given the choice of becoming a British citizen (for him or his family) or receiving an OBE. He chose naturalization ahead of the award. PITY otherwise he would have had an Iron cross etc and an OBE.

It would be interesting to Know what the Americans views was as well.

Kind regards

Munroe

Ed_Haynes · 01-26-2003, 09:27 AM

While slightly off topic, this may address US attitudes.

A teacher of mine in high school had served in the US army during and after WWII. Sometime in the early- mid-1950s, he was a senior sergeant in his unit. And the colonel was staging a full-dress inspection.

One slightly older private, who rarely spoke to anyone but was well-known for his professional (combat) skills turned out for inspection. This was at a time when everyone had the National Defense Service medal for "being there" during the Korean War period. And the older pivate turned out without (!) his single medal. And the colonel chewed him, and the captain, and the sergeant (my teacher) out for this, ordering him at the next inspection to wear "all his medals". (You may guess where this is going.)

Next inspection, the private turned out wearing his National Defense Service Medal. And his Iron Crosses (Knight's Cross, First Class, and Second Class), and his gold wound badge, and his Anti-Partisan Badge, and his East Front Medal, and his SS service medals, and other assorted hardware. And this was before the "purified" badges without swastika appeared.

This was the last time the colonel made his demand for "all medals".

Ed Haynes

Dave · 01-26-2003, 10:18 AM

Munroe:

While I'd highly doubt that wearing British and US awards were encouraged, it did seem that people wore them. Here's a photo of Marshal of the Soviet Union Chuykov, and his US Army Distinguished Service Cross can clearly be seen on the uppr right corner of his awards. This photo is dated 1954. A later photo from the late 70's also shows him still wearing the DSC.

--Dave

Dave · 01-26-2003, 10:38 AM

And finally, here's MSU Rokossovsky in the early 60's wearing (in it's own right!) one heck of an impressive collection of British awards! Look at his right side- he has the Knight Commander of the Most Honorable Order of the Bath, breast badge, and the neck badge (minus cravat) down at the bottom. To the right of the neck badge is the US Legion of Merit Chief Commander!

--Dave

slava1stclass · 01-26-2003, 11:01 AM

To all:

Dave's pictures support my theory (repeated below from a previous post) that an exception was made for those Red Army personnel of G.O./Marshall rank:

"I agree that the likely reason there is no reference to the U.S. decorations in his records is the fact that post-WW II relations with the USSR were defined by the Cold War mindset. That said, it would have been very difficult for the average Red Army soldier to have decorations from an "avowed" enemy reflected in his service record. When further placed in the context of the NKVD/KGB's espionage paranoia, this makes perfect sense. I personally think, however, that the Soviet regime likely viewed WW II U.S. awards in a very different light when it became a matter of the senior Red Army officers holding G.O./Marshal rank."

Dave's photo of MSU Rokossovskiy also raises a very interesting new development. Information currently available from U.S. War Department GOs and other sources indicates that the only Red Army officer to be awarded the LOM in the degree of Chief Commander was MSU Zhukov. I have a copy of the WD GO for Zhukov's award. Dave's photo now suggests otherwise. I'll review my Red Army LOM data for Rokossovskiy's LOM info. I can verify Chuikov's DSC as being authorized by a WD GO. More to follow...

P.S. Munroe, the photo evidence of the GCB for Zhukov and KCB for Rokossovskiy supports my earlier message to you ref them likely being awarded these by the Brits in Berlin in the summer of 1945. I've seen photos of the ceremony. General of the Army Sokolovskiy received the KBE at the same ceremony.

Regards,

slava1stclass

mcwirsk · 01-26-2003, 11:25 AM

Dear All

I agree with slava1st class. (it would be nice to call you by your first name). It seems that the big shots did not care and wore their awards proudly. But it seems that a Col in the reserves did not take chances like that. Especially a guy who was just a university prof.

I have seen the pictures of senior US officers wearing their Soviet stuff. What about the lower ranks?

Whats also interesting is the way the Soviets wear the awards. They wear the neck decorations like breast decorations. Was this becuase the Soviets had no neck decorations? All other "foreign" nations seem to wear them correctly.

I was just think... I think we can agree that the higher bravery awards Silver stars, DSC, Navy crosses went to Soviets who were decorated for bravery but do you think the awards like LOMs and BSs went to units that came into contact with American forces

Can someone check if the 297 Rifles Slaviano-Kirovogradskaya Division came into contact with American forces?

Kind regards

Munroe

PS Dave, it looks like a KBE.

slava1stclass · 01-26-2003, 12:04 PM

Munroe,

Evidence would seem to support your belief that the majority of LOM and BS awards to Red Army personnel were those made once our two forces came into contact with one another. In the U.S. Army the LOM is awarded for service/achievement. The BS may be awarded for service/achievement or heroism. Remember, too, that the LOM was authorized in July 1942 and one of the main reasons for its creation was to recognize foreign military personnel - this explains its four degrees. The BS was a relatively new award back then only having been first authorized in February 1944.

My sensing is that in the exuberance of the moment of first linking up with the Russians the medals (and vodka) were flowing freely in both directions. Since the LOM and BS can both be awarded for meritorious service, and done so relatively quickly and unbureaucratically at the Division level, this would appear to be the most logical explanation. The Americans could quickly reciprocate for any Russian awards to American personnel by awarding the LOM and BS at the level where you actually encountered them - the Division level in the field. Additionally, this scenario helps to explain why visibility over the total number of LOMs and BSs proves so difficult.

In terms of where these link ups occurred, I would suggest that the most likely scenarios involved U.S. units that pushed to the Elbe, those in western Czecholslovakia and Austria as well as those which entered Berlin early in the summer of 1945 (initially the 82nd Abn Division) to assume occupation duty. Hope this helps.

P.S. Although not an expert on British decorations, I have to agree with Dave. Moskalenko is wearing the military KBE and Rokossovskiy the military KCB.

As a follow up, MSU Rokossovskiy is not listed among the other Red Army personnel who were awarded the LOM by the U.S. Army in WW II. My data is based on WD, MMM and other U.S. Army GOs running through 1946 and contains over 300 names. I'll screen the WD GOs for 1947 and 1948 to see if he appears in these.

Dave's photo confirms two things: 1) that a second award of the LOM (degree of Chief Commander) was indeed persented to another high-ranking Red Army officer (in addition to MSU Zhukov) and 2) the extremely difficult nature of nailing down specifics on this very interesting aspect of Red Army WW II history.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Dave · 01-26-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by slava1stclass
To all:

Dave's photo confirms two things: 1) that a second award of the LOM (degree of Chief Commander) was indeed persented to another high-ranking Red Army officer (in addition to MSU Zhukov) and 2) the extremely difficult nature of nailing down specifics on this very interesting aspect of Red Army WW II history.

Looking through my photos, I also have a photo of MSU's Eremenko, Govorov, Vasilevskii, and Meretskov all wearing a Chief Commander of the LOM! Seems like it was almost the 'norm' award to be given to Front commanders, and the equivelant.

--Dave

slava1stclass · 01-26-2003, 04:06 PM

Dave,

Your photo confirmations add immensely to the overall picture. Are you absolutely certain, however, that each one of them is wearing the Chief Commander and not the Commander degree? I only ask since the Commander degree was a "neck" award and the Soviets would simply attach the Commander badge to their uniform tunic/blouse since they couldn't wear it around their neck. At first glance, it looks like Chief Commander. If you can make out a bronze wreath suspension loop on the top of the LOM badge then it is fact in the degree of Commander. The suspension loop is a dead give away for the Commander degree.
I raise this point because my data lists both MSU Konev (1st Ukrainian) and MSU Tolbukhin (3rd Ukrainian) as having received the LOM in the degree of Commander. This would then shoot down the Front Commander automatically = Chief Commander degree theory. I'll check my list for Eremenko, Meretskov, Govorov and Vasilevskiy to see if they're listed as having received the LOM prior to promotion to Marshal.

With your guys and the ones I've listed above, I believe we're only missing the status of Gen of the Army Bagramayan (1st Baltic Front) and MSU Malinovskiy (2nd Ukrainian Front).

Regards,

slava1stclass

Dave · 01-26-2003, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by slava1stclass
Are you absolutely certain, however, that each one of them is wearing the Chief Commander and not the Commander degree?

Aha- now I see I have shot my dependability at ID'ing awards with the miss-ID'ing of the KBE! ;)

I am absolutely positive that the ones I've seen are Chief Commanders on the MSU's I listed above. I do have a photo of Konev that is quite interesting... The neck cravat for his Commander of the LOM being tied almost in a 'bow', and then that being used as a ribbon to attach the award on his uniform. Rather interesting.

According to my records here on LOM awards to Soviets, only Govorov (though listed as a Col... Is it the same guy?) awarded the LOM by the 45th Infantry Divison, is mentioned. None of the others (Eremenko, Vasilevski, Meretskov) are listed. Strange.

We've seen pictures of them wearing the awards, so there is obviously a resource that isn't getting tapped for Soviet citations. (Or a lot of them were lost!) Perhaps the Department of State conferred (they couldn't award, but perhaps they were placed in custody of the paperwork???) LOMs to senior officers, via a channel other than the War Department or MMM?

Quite an interesting hunt....

Dave

01-26-2003, 09:27 AM	#2
Ed_Haynes Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Earth, USA, SC Posts: 123	Marginally on topic . . . While slightly off topic, this may address US attitudes. A teacher of mine in high school had served in the US army during and after WWII. Sometime in the early- mid-1950s, he was a senior sergeant in his unit. And the colonel was staging a full-dress inspection. One slightly older private, who rarely spoke to anyone but was well-known for his professional (combat) skills turned out for inspection. This was at a time when everyone had the National Defense Service medal for "being there" during the Korean War period. And the older pivate turned out without (!) his single medal. And the colonel chewed him, and the captain, and the sergeant (my teacher) out for this, ordering him at the next inspection to wear "all his medals". (You may guess where this is going.) Next inspection, the private turned out wearing his National Defense Service Medal. And his Iron Crosses (Knight's Cross, First Class, and Second Class), and his gold wound badge, and his Anti-Partisan Badge, and his East Front Medal, and his SS service medals, and other assorted hardware. And this was before the "purified" badges without swastika appeared. This was the last time the colonel made his demand for "all medals". Ed Haynes

01-26-2003, 11:01 AM	#5
slava1stclass Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 838	To all: Dave's pictures support my theory (repeated below from a previous post) that an exception was made for those Red Army personnel of G.O./Marshall rank: "I agree that the likely reason there is no reference to the U.S. decorations in his records is the fact that post-WW II relations with the USSR were defined by the Cold War mindset. That said, it would have been very difficult for the average Red Army soldier to have decorations from an "avowed" enemy reflected in his service record. When further placed in the context of the NKVD/KGB's espionage paranoia, this makes perfect sense. I personally think, however, that the Soviet regime likely viewed WW II U.S. awards in a very different light when it became a matter of the senior Red Army officers holding G.O./Marshal rank." Dave's photo of MSU Rokossovskiy also raises a very interesting new development. Information currently available from U.S. War Department GOs and other sources indicates that the only Red Army officer to be awarded the LOM in the degree of Chief Commander was MSU Zhukov. I have a copy of the WD GO for Zhukov's award. Dave's photo now suggests otherwise. I'll review my Red Army LOM data for Rokossovskiy's LOM info. I can verify Chuikov's DSC as being authorized by a WD GO. More to follow... P.S. Munroe, the photo evidence of the GCB for Zhukov and KCB for Rokossovskiy supports my earlier message to you ref them likely being awarded these by the Brits in Berlin in the summer of 1945. I've seen photos of the ceremony. General of the Army Sokolovskiy received the KBE at the same ceremony. Regards, slava1stclass Last edited by slava1stclass; 02-18-2003 at 09:27 AM.

01-26-2003, 12:04 PM	#7
slava1stclass Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 838	Munroe, Evidence would seem to support your belief that the majority of LOM and BS awards to Red Army personnel were those made once our two forces came into contact with one another. In the U.S. Army the LOM is awarded for service/achievement. The BS may be awarded for service/achievement or heroism. Remember, too, that the LOM was authorized in July 1942 and one of the main reasons for its creation was to recognize foreign military personnel - this explains its four degrees. The BS was a relatively new award back then only having been first authorized in February 1944. My sensing is that in the exuberance of the moment of first linking up with the Russians the medals (and vodka) were flowing freely in both directions. Since the LOM and BS can both be awarded for meritorious service, and done so relatively quickly and unbureaucratically at the Division level, this would appear to be the most logical explanation. The Americans could quickly reciprocate for any Russian awards to American personnel by awarding the LOM and BS at the level where you actually encountered them - the Division level in the field. Additionally, this scenario helps to explain why visibility over the total number of LOMs and BSs proves so difficult. In terms of where these link ups occurred, I would suggest that the most likely scenarios involved U.S. units that pushed to the Elbe, those in western Czecholslovakia and Austria as well as those which entered Berlin early in the summer of 1945 (initially the 82nd Abn Division) to assume occupation duty. Hope this helps. P.S. Although not an expert on British decorations, I have to agree with Dave. Moskalenko is wearing the military KBE and Rokossovskiy the military KCB. As a follow up, MSU Rokossovskiy is not listed among the other Red Army personnel who were awarded the LOM by the U.S. Army in WW II. My data is based on WD, MMM and other U.S. Army GOs running through 1946 and contains over 300 names. I'll screen the WD GOs for 1947 and 1948 to see if he appears in these. Dave's photo confirms two things: 1) that a second award of the LOM (degree of Chief Commander) was indeed persented to another high-ranking Red Army officer (in addition to MSU Zhukov) and 2) the extremely difficult nature of nailing down specifics on this very interesting aspect of Red Army WW II history. Regards, slava1stclass Last edited by CtahhR; 10-19-2014 at 02:39 PM.

01-26-2003, 04:06 PM	#9
slava1stclass Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 838	Dave, Your photo confirmations add immensely to the overall picture. Are you absolutely certain, however, that each one of them is wearing the Chief Commander and not the Commander degree? I only ask since the Commander degree was a "neck" award and the Soviets would simply attach the Commander badge to their uniform tunic/blouse since they couldn't wear it around their neck. At first glance, it looks like Chief Commander. If you can make out a bronze wreath suspension loop on the top of the LOM badge then it is fact in the degree of Commander. The suspension loop is a dead give away for the Commander degree. I raise this point because my data lists both MSU Konev (1st Ukrainian) and MSU Tolbukhin (3rd Ukrainian) as having received the LOM in the degree of Commander. This would then shoot down the Front Commander automatically = Chief Commander degree theory. I'll check my list for Eremenko, Meretskov, Govorov and Vasilevskiy to see if they're listed as having received the LOM prior to promotion to Marshal. With your guys and the ones I've listed above, I believe we're only missing the status of Gen of the Army Bagramayan (1st Baltic Front) and MSU Malinovskiy (2nd Ukrainian Front). Regards, slava1stclass Last edited by slava1stclass; 01-26-2003 at 10:41 PM.

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01-26-2003, 08:48 AM	#1
mcwirsk Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sandton, South Africa Age: 59 Posts: 92	Dear all I would be interested to know what the "official" point of view was regarding the wearing of American (or British) awards in the cold war period. Col Galprin did not mention them in his 1950's documentation. I see that a lot of Soviet Marshalls received American decorations. Did they stop wearing them. Tal, you are the the man for pictures!!!. In the British army the order was given to take down decorations awarded by the now enemy. I have seen German awards given to South African troops for the 1906 Herero (German South West Africa) campaign been instructed to be removed in ww1. I have groups like this. In addition I have a ww1 Romanian award to a South African who was POW (at Tobruck) in ww2 and he did not receive instructions to remove the award in ww2. I don't think they knew waht it was. I have awards to a German officer in ww1 who moved to South Africa in the 1930's and joined up with the South Africans in ww2. I have seen pictures of him and he is not wearing his ww1 German awards in uniform, but I have seen pictures of him in the 1950s ( in civilian clothes) wearing his German awards and not his ww2 (British) awards. By the way at the end of ww2 he was given the choice of becoming a British citizen (for him or his family) or receiving an OBE. He chose naturalization ahead of the award. PITY otherwise he would have had an Iron cross etc and an OBE. It would be interesting to Know what the Americans views was as well. Kind regards Munroe

01-26-2003, 11:25 AM	#6
mcwirsk Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sandton, South Africa Age: 59 Posts: 92	Dear All I agree with slava1st class. (it would be nice to call you by your first name). It seems that the big shots did not care and wore their awards proudly. But it seems that a Col in the reserves did not take chances like that. Especially a guy who was just a university prof. I have seen the pictures of senior US officers wearing their Soviet stuff. What about the lower ranks? Whats also interesting is the way the Soviets wear the awards. They wear the neck decorations like breast decorations. Was this becuase the Soviets had no neck decorations? All other "foreign" nations seem to wear them correctly. I was just think... I think we can agree that the higher bravery awards Silver stars, DSC, Navy crosses went to Soviets who were decorated for bravery but do you think the awards like LOMs and BSs went to units that came into contact with American forces Can someone check if the 297 Rifles Slaviano-Kirovogradskaya Division came into contact with American forces? Kind regards Munroe PS Dave, it looks like a KBE.

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