Historical Research LLC Authentications

[Dolf]

Originally Posted by AlexF.

Dolf,
I agree with you, actually, almost agree, since Rarity rating is always subjective, regardless who's system we use, to say the least...

Alex,

I perfectly understand what you mean about the subjectivity of a RR system, but what made PMD's RR "official" is the fact it's the one used by all major and serious dealers, and the fact his system is the one we collectors all accept without discussion.
In fact this is perfectly normal, we all need one official system on this hobby, as in many other things in life btw just the human nature I suppose

Dolf

[Eugene]

Very interesting discussion!
I just went through the topic.
Most of what is said is correct. .
I just want to share some of my thoughts.
1. I don’t agree with Ron that “this just another nail in the coffin for collecting soviet awards”. What if we didn’t have Paul? I know many collectors in US who don’t acquire his COA because of one of two options or both:
a) They rely on their own judgment
b) They don’t consider Paul’s COA to be 100% reliable.
The prices on Soviet awards went up because many collectors who are able to pay high prices came to the market in Russia. They are not asking for Paul’s COA. On opposite, they are making fun of his certificates in Russia.
2. I don’t agree that it’s a good idea to have only one expert. Not just because of monopoly and prices. It might work if such expertise was 100% proof. This subject, as it was mentioned above, is very subjective. Paul has deserved a huge credit for stopping stream of fakes in late 90s – beginning this century. The percent of fakes on the market in US many times lower than in Europe (especially Germany). But he is a human being. He is not up-to date and, as William said, makes mistakes. It happened before and quite a few Soviet awards were not correctly authenticated just recently. What happens if Paul’s stops authentication service tomorrow? I don’t think collecting of Soviet awards will die. When Paul is out for several months, people still buy and sell the orders and medals. There are many other experts. Some of them more knowledgeable on particular awards than Paul. It’s just a matter of time before alternative service will appear on market. Paul’s grades are subjective as well. For the same condition he can give higher or lower grades. Even his most loyal dealer sometimes places into description: “in our opinion this award deserves the higher grade”.
3. It sounds like a good idea to differentiate service charge based on value of awards, but only provider of such service can decide what to charge.

[new world]

Let's not generalize too much here.

I see posters mentioning the entire collectors community, but we really talking about Western collectors here (USA and Europe). Hwever, these days Russia has become larger market that the USA/Europe (more activity, wider selection, higher prices).

My impression is that in Russia McDaniel and his certificates hold little weight. When someone from Russia buys an award - for him MCD paper is just addition, unlike for American collector who views it as must have.

I know of cases when a Russian collector threw PMD certificates in trash can... It looks like Paul's decision will mostly affect collectors who live outside of former SU.

William

[Dolf]

William,

In my case I'm obviously only speaking of my limited knowledge and experience of the market in the West (Europe or the US) as I know nothing about the market in former USSR, apart from what is said here and there by collectors like you who speak Russian and are up to date concerning the Russian market.
So I guess you're right about the importance PMD's certificates migh have, or rather not, in Russia. They are of course important only for (some) Western collectors.

Dolf

[histres]

Hello to everyone in the Soviet Order and Medal community. This is Paul McDaniel and I would like to take a moment of your time to clarify a few things discussed in this forum, and also a few comments about the collecting community in general. Over the years, I’ve wanted to enter the forum discussions, however, my real job, kids, health, and all-expenses paid government trips to “lively” places have precluded me from doing so. I have to admit, over the years I have taken a peek at the forum, and have been amused, enlightened and at times, pissed off. The following will address these issues fully.

NEW WEBSITE AND PRICES

First off, let me tell you that when I read the discussions on this matter, I was really ticked, especially since I’ve known many of you for years and not one person, save one, wrote me a note about it!! For those of you who have known me, you know that I HAVE NEVER TRIED TO SCREW or GOUGE ANYONE!!! I have looked at literally thousands of pieces for people (both beginning and advanced collectors), especially at shows, and have given my opinions for FREE. For many of you, I’ve even sent free items to, and have answered HUNDREDS of E-mails by people wanting to know the minutest detail about a piece. All of this has come at a price, mainly my ability to have a life with my family. I think that is probably the greatest reason for me not entering the forum until now. I want to help people enjoy the hobby, and the history that goes with it, but I also don’t want to spend all of my free time answering questions.

It has been 9 years since Paul Schmitt and I wrote the book. Since then, others and I have found many new variations, and I’ve seen the prices bottom out and then go sky-high. Ten years ago, I was pretty much the only serious researcher and "expert" in the United States. There was only one reason for this. I was in the right place, at the right time and I recorded everything I got my hands on during the 1991-1998 time frame. I was also buying a huge amount of orders and medals for collectors and visited nearly every dealer in the West to record their inventory. I consider this time the “golden age” of Soviet Order and Medal collecting. Prices were cheap and there were lots of quality pieces to buy, observe and record. Fakes were practically non-existent in the early 90s and I remember when dealers had many full bags of Glory 2nd and 3rds, Red Stars, Red Banners and Nevskys. Paperwork added almost nothing to the price of groups. I have often said that even if I had unlimited funds today, I could still not purchase all the rare variations that I observed back then.

This brings me to the point I’m trying to make. That was then, this is now. There are many out there that know just as much or more than I do about some items and they can look at them and say they are right or wrong, just as well as I can. However, this is probably not true when it comes to the high-end pieces, which I’m sure there just aren’t that many people out there who have observed over 300 Suvorov 2nd Classes, as well as have had the privilege of holding all four of Marshall Zhukov’s Hero stars and one Order of Victory in their hands. I’m not stupid enough to even think I’m the know-all expert in the field. There are probably many people better at it than me in Russia and elsewhere. I’m constantly learning new things about the hobby. My increase in the price for authentications solves two things for me.

1: It puts authenticating back where it should be, with the high-end pieces, because there just aren’t that many people out there who have seen enough really high-end pieces to authenticate them.

2: It gives me time to spend with my family.

Kim from Sweden was right when he said that I wasn’t going to do them anymore. I was sick of having to work 40-50 hours a week at my regular job and then an additional 30-40 hours a week on authentications. I was getting burnt out and not spending enough time with my family. THE ONLY REASON THAT I AM CONTINUING WITH IT IS BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE BEGGED ME NOT TO QUIT DOING THEM. If you have known me for a while, you know that I am out to protect the collector, NOT any dealer. Making money has never been my motivation for doing these authentications. I wish there was someone else out there who could do high-end authentications, so I wouldn’t have to. Most of you experienced collectors can tell whether a low to mid-value piece is a fake or not, because you have seen many of them, making authenticating those pieces a waste of my time and your money. Unfortunately, the skyrocketing of prices has really hurt the collecting of these historical artifacts. I couldn’t even imagine starting to collect them now. Because of the high prices, many people are having pieces authenticated that I never did in the past, and that was driving the number of authentications to an impossible level. Everyone has to take it upon themselves to learn about the hobby and not rely on me, or anybody else, to do their studying for them. There are many experts in this field, many of which are part of this forum, so take advantage of the knowledge they have and drive on.

MISTAKES ON AUTHENTICATION CERTIFICATES

Nobody is the all-knowing expert in the field of Soviet Orders and Medals. I certainly am not and neither is anyone else. What I give in an authentication certificate is an opinion, nothing more. Over the years, I have discovered hundreds of fakes, some of which were of terrible quality, and others were of excellent quality. In addition, there have been many occasions where I have returned pieces without being able to state whether or not they are real or fake, because of poor condition or because it had some good points and bad points. I would be a fool to think that the authentication certificates are 100% right, all the time. I try to make them as close to that as possible, however, I am not infallible, and no one should think of me as that. One thing, however, that has disturbed me greatly, is that there are several people who have bashed the authentication certificates as wrong, yet NEVER returned a piece to the dealer who they bought it from, asked me for their money back, or confronted me about why I think it is real. One example is the Order of the Red Banner of Labor, #125 that I did an authentication on a while back. Some “experts” have stated that it is a fake. I wonder how many examples of this piece these “experts” have seen. Even though that particular piece has a slightly different die than others, it is still real! Since the “Comprehensive Guide” was written, I have discovered over 5 varieties of the Type 1, all of which are absolutely real. I wonder if many of these “experts” have observed enough to see where certain die breaks have started in a serial number range, expanded, finally broke the die, and a new die substituted. I have, and all of this information has been recorded, which if something were to happen to me, several people are aware of where I store it. Yes, I could write another book showing these characteristics, however, I just don’t have the time and I don’t want the fakers out there to learn how to make a perfect fake, within the correct serial number range. Not to say I haven’t been burned. Of course the sheer number of authentications and having to do them well into the night, may contribute to one or two slipping through the cracks, however, I try very hard to not have this happen. I implore any of you out there who think that they have a fake with an authentication certificate to return it to the dealer you bought it from, and get your money back. I also wish to hear your concerns and look at the piece again. Furthermore, I might explain something about the piece that you haven’t heard of before. In contrast, you may enlighten me!!!

This brings me to another point. If any of you are buying Soviet orders and medals from someone with whom you will have a difficult time getting your money back, go flush all the rest of your money down the toilet, because it is the same thing. I will not name names, but you all know which dealers give a money back guarantee FOREVER, and those that do not. Deal with them. Shop them all, find the best price (with guarantee) and spend your money. You can’t imagine how many times I’ve devastated somebody because all of the orders and medals that they purchased for a great price in Estonia or Ukraine were all fakes. This is heartbreaking for me because these people will NEVER buy another Soviet order or medal and we will loose another potential collector friend.

As far as the comment about the Russians laughing at the authentication certificates, I find it amusing. It has been 9 years since Paul Schmitt and I wrote the book and a Russian-made version (with greatly expanded information) has yet to come out. Also, many of the books that have come out obviously use the serial number ranges found in the “Comprehensive Guide”, yet don’t offer us credit. Could it be that they are pissed that an upstart American duo wrote a book on the subject? By the way, I’ve had many Russians in Russia get authentications done, and I could care less if some thumb their noses at them.

Anyway, I’ve said my piece. I hope all of you out there now know that I am not out there to screw anyone and that I will continue to support the hobby in whatever capacity that might be helpful, whether I do authentication certificates or not. Take care all,

Sincerely,

Paul McDaniel

[HuliganRS]

Paul,

Thank you for your reply.

Please look in on this forum and post a reply or two if you get a chance.

We'd love to have you here even once in a while.

Thanks!

Rusty.

[Dolf]

Paul,

Thank you very much for taking your time to reply to our questions.
Your statement perfectly clarifies a lot of things, in particular the reason that recently started this discussion, I mean the increase in the authentication prices.

One thing is still not completely clear to me: if I do understand it right, one of the main reasons for you to increase the authentication prices is because "It puts authenticating back where it should be, with the high-end pieces..."
So, as you also say that there are other people out there who might be able to authenticate Soviet Orders and Medals, do you believe it would be possible that more than one person could do these COAs? I mean, you for the high-end pieces, and another expert for the other pieces?
I ask because I thought, as mentionned above in one of my posts, that the collectors seem to accept only one person to authenticate awards from one country and/or period: you for Soviet awards, Detlev Niemann for TR awards (I think he is the only one doing it for those awards), etc (not sure if there are more for awards of other countries and/or periods!).
Anyway, even if another top expert started to do authentication for low-end and/or mid-value Soviet awards, would this "cohabitation" be possible?

Just my thoughts.

Again, thank you very much,

Dolf

[new world]

Paul,

welcome to the Forum!

We really appreciate you bringing more light to the questions we've discussed here.

William

[Dave]

Paul:

Thanks for taking the time to address the concerns of the members here on the forum. You hit the nail on the head, in my opinion.

Thanks again!

Dave
General Talk Moderator

[alanirvine]

Paul, with considerable delight I read your comments and agree with your thoughts.

I only wish that you had the time to contribute to the forum more often.

IMO, you are the authority on the subject and it seems to me that the community thinks so too.

The "Comprehensive Guide", even 9 years later, is still considered the best on the subject. I only wish that you would consider publishing a current version. I am sure that the members would gladly contribute material if requested.

I am sure that the other members would agree that you are the guy to call on when it comes to verification. With the increasing complexity of fakes that seem to be proliferating almost daily, the collecting community needs your contributions.

Again, great to hear from you!

Alanirvine