Medal House

[Laurent]

In case you believe there were fakes among the Soviet items; please let me know which one?

With best regards,
Jani

Jani,

Just have a look at the non exhaustive list in the beginning of this thread...

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/s...html#post61359

[Art]

Originally Posted by Finnmedals

Absolutely. At this moment information on this forum is somewhat terrible

This thread or this entire forum?

[Finnmedals]

Originally Posted by Laurent

In case you believe there were fakes among the Soviet items; please let me know which one?

With best regards,
Jani

Jani,

Just have a look at the non exhaustive list in the beginning of this thread...

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/s...html#post61359

Thank you,

I will keep you informed what I will find out.

Jani

[AlexF.]

Jani,
Before you start scrambling over all these issues, ask if any of this forum's members / participants of this particular thread were registered bidders at your auction.

Guys,
This is, of course, my personal take on this, and those who know me know for the fact that I don't patronize anybody, but I fail to see any substance in the above arguments about fakes, high prices, etc. The only valid issue that needs to be addressed is the "dramatization" of Paul McDaniel's involvement, directly linked to MedalHouse' "Terms and Conditions of Sale". But that would have been an issue regardless whether or not there were any fakes or misrepresented items among lots!

As for the fakes, there is a list of prices realized published on their website, together with online version of the catalogue (for those who didn't receive a hard copy). Any of the forum experts can validate their claims with example of a fake lot that had been sold...

[Finnmedals]

Originally Posted by Art

This thread or this entire forum?

Accusations on this thread.

I have talked with my partner and and looking forward to his input. I'll try to arrange better pictures and information regarding the items that P.Schmit claimed to fakes.

Jani

[Finnmedals]

Originally Posted by AlexF.

Jani,
Before you start scrambling over all these issues, ask if any of this forum's members / participants of this particular thread were registered bidders at your auction.

If there were fakes among the sold items I will personally take care that buyers will be contacted regarding this issue. I am not aware of any members of this forum bidding and winning any items.

I still believe we do not have problems with the authenticity, but some misunderstanding with Mr. McDaniel might have happened.

Jani

[AlexF.]

Originally Posted by Finnmedals

If there were fakes among the sold items I will personally take care that buyers will be contacted regarding this issue.

You're taking a very refreshing and respectable stand on this. However, just wait and see if thread participants would produce examples of such sold lots first... there may be no such problems after all...
Frankly, I think there definitely were several items, either altered original orders or outright fakes, but I don't think any were actually sold. That was the reason why I said that "there is no fakes problem"...

Originally Posted by Finnmedals

I am not aware of any members of this forum bidding and winning any items.

Except me, bidder #42

[GREAKLY]

Gentlemen,

I would like to try to clarify this issue. All Soviet items offered for sale at the March 2007 MedalHouse auction were first available for viewing at the 2006 OMSA Convention in Phoenix, AZ. During that convention Paul McDaniel had a chance to look at them. He spent 15-20 minutes examining those items and giving quick opinions, such as "good", "good but modified/repaired" and "bad". None of the items Paul believed to be outright "bad" made their way into the catalog. All the items he believed were "modified/repaired/altered" were clearly stated as such in the catalog descriptions.

During the convention Paul was asked permission to use his name in the catalog in connection with expertise and authentication of Soviet items. Such permission has been granted. This is when the word "approved" (for the lack of a better term) came into play. In the next paragraph of the same document all potential bidders were encouraged to contact the auction house staff for full details of such "approval" and warranty. Some people, actually, did that and received complete information.

There was absolutely no possibility to get Certificates of Authenticity for all/many Soviet items before the auction (as some members of this forum have suggested) for a number of reasons. The main one was the cost. With over a hundred of Soviet items offered (many being part of groups) authentication would have cost over $30K. That's compartible with the auction's profit from the entire transaction. The consignors also refused to pay for such service. On the top of that, Russians (who, as expected, turned out to be buyers of over 90% of all items) do not value Paul's certificates as much as, in my opinion, they should've. And, on the top of that, there were logistical issues involved, time frame constrains and etc. All that prevented the MedalHouse auction from receiving "formal" CoAs for any of the Soviet items offered for sale BEFORE the auction.

The sentence "...under no circumstances the return will be accepted once the consignor has been paid..." in "Term and conditions" absolutely does not mean any lack of warranty. Every auction house has to maintain consignor's payoff time frame (usually 60 days). That still leaves the buyer more than enough time to receive the item and inspect it. Should he have any doubts all he needs to do is to inform the auction house immidiately so that it could "freeze" the funds (stop consignor's payoff) untill the issue is resolved. Should the buyer obtain Paul's certificate proving the item being a copy he would receive full refund including commission and the cost of the CoA.

Given all the facts mentioned above I believe the MedalHouse acted in good faith and went well beyond what's normally expected from any auction house to ensure that no fakes were offered for sale. In particular, the following actions have been contucted:

1. Items were brought overseas (!) so that potential bidders from other hemisphere could have a chance to inspect them personally

2. Before the auction all items were shown to the renowned authority in the field. All the items he believed were outright "bad" were immidiately removed from the sale

3. Should any Soviet item sold at the auction turn out to be a copy/fake (which has to be proved by Paul's certificate) the buyer would receive a full refund

I can hardly think of any auction house that does any of the steps mentioned above. MedalHouse did ALL of them. In my opinion, the only thing that should have been done differently was the description of the nature of Paul's involvement. I can clearly see now that choice of the word "approved by Paul" in that conext was a bad idea (although "viewed and OKeyed" or something similar sounded equally bad). However, please keep in mind that for all of the MedalHouse staff English happens to be the second language. Does anyone here really think that unintentional wrong choice of words ("approved expert" vs. "approved by expert") made by a non-native English speaker caused entire auction to "fail miserably" (I quote one of the forum members)?

I hope this clarifies the issue. I can only add that originally more good things were planned to make the auction even better (for instance, placing multiple hi-res item pictures on the web site and etc.). Unfortunately none of that ever happened. Entire month before the auction all MedalHouse staff was fully occupied with writting letters, consulting lawyers and meeting with authorities in order to repulse another Sotheby/UBS-style Russian attack. But that's a totally different story...

[Lapa]

Greakly,

Thank you fir your clarifications. By the way, a very substential part of the Forum membership happens to handle English as a second (or sometimes third) language; IMHO, the onus for what you MEANT to say still rests upon your shoulders. You indicated that you consulted with lawyers, and various specialists on an other issue; well, you also could have on this one. By the way, I have been involved with the 2 major auction houses in Australia (Noble - formerly Spinks-Noble - and Downies) for a few years. I'll be happy to be of service if you ever require any assitance.

Originally Posted by GREAKLY

...Entire month before the auction all MedalHouse staff was fully occupied with writting letters, consulting lawyers and meeting with authorities in order to repulse another Sotheby/UBS-style Russian attack. But that's a totally different story...

That being said, would you care elaborating on this topic, since it seems that you successfully fended off the "big bad bear". As collectors, we happen to be on the same boat as you.

Marc

[GREAKLY]

Actually there is OMSA Journal analytical article planned to be published on this matter. In short, the main idea of repulsing such attacks is to ask for factual proof of any statements made by Russian authorities. That's where it all ends. To prove that any item was stolen from its rightful owner there has be a police case opened sometime in the past. Therefore, for each item in question Russians have to provide at least police case number, date, location and name of the police officer handling the case. If such information does not accompany the claim it's moot from the start and should not be taken seriously. Even if Russians provide some names and/or date/numbers they would have to bring the full transcript of the actual case (fully translated ) to the court outside of Russia for each item.

The same applies to the claim that items were taken from Russia illegally. Since they were made sometime between 1917-1991 in the Soviet Union for each item Russians have to trace its whereabouts from the time of issue till present. That includes statements from the veteran himself and/or his family, all the inheritance paperwork (who got the medals after the death of the recipient), prove of veteran's and/or item's physical presence during all the time (especially after 21.12.1991) and etc.

Given, that there are so many ways medals could have poped up outside of Russia perfectly legally (stayed outside of Russia after 1991, awarded to foreigners, taken out by veteran or his relatives (no permission needed) and etc.) for each item (!) Russian authorities have to prove in a court outside of Russia (!!) that each of possible legal ways of export never took place (!!!). Given the scope of the task that seems to be absolutely impossible. It would take a few police officers a few weeks to collect all the information for just one item (just imagine the pleasure of tracing the family roots of someone named Ivanov ). Tracing large lot of medals like the one offered at the recent MedalHouse auction will shut down an entire police department for a year or more. And a tracing attempt for all Soviet awards currently in open circulation (auctions, dealers, shows, ebay, etc.) will cause the collapse of entire Russian police system as they would be doing nothing but calling the relatives and asking questions like "...when you grandpa spent his vacation in Riga in 1990 did he take his medals with him"?

Personally I believe Russian authorities should lift the ban on sale of Soviet awards and move the cut-off date from 1917 to 1991. At the moment outside of Russia there is a large market of Soviet awards with perfectly legal background (originating from former Soviet republics, awarded to foreigners, sold by veterans outside of Russia, etc.). Such awards could be legally imported into Russia (although no sane person does that ) thus creating two groups of Soviet medals inside the country: "for sale" (imported ones) and "not for sale" ("home-grown" ones ). Given the presumption of innocence (which was lately heavily abused) the burden of proof to which "group" each particular item belongs falls on the authorities. Many of you have done research and know how hard it is. The task we're talking about is going to be ten times harder...

Of course, all that was said from the legal standpoint. As everything in Russia the reality will be different. Collectors will end up proving that their items are good. And authorities will cease items first and think later. Thankfully, such "justice" doesn't work outside Russia, so "western" collectors have nothing to worry about.