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Soviet Orders Physical Characteristics, History, Types/Variations, Identification, Collecting Stories, anything relevant to the collecting of authentic Soviet Orders (Ордена СССР) is here.

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Old 01-11-2003, 06:10 PM   #31
Mozzabloke
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It amazes me that this was never marked as a variation.

I only have 10 3rd class glories but 2 of them are the thin type.

It's a shame Paul McDaniel has stoped catologing new variations on his site.

Mark

Last edited by Mozzabloke; 01-18-2003 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 01-30-2003, 07:40 AM   #32
slava1stclass
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Cavaliers of the Order of Glory - Present Day Market Realities

To all:

PREFACE/CLARIFICATION: Please note that my personal preference is to use the term "Full Knight" when referring to what others in the collecting community commonly refer to as a "Full Cavalier" of the Order of Glory. My preference in this regard is well known among long-time forum members/guests to include Art, this web site's owner. Thank you.

My interest in Full Knights of the Order of Glory (which extends back well over a decade) has led me to the following general observations ref the collectors market for Full Knight sets that has developed in the United States and Europe over this period. I offer the following as my personal observations and welcome your comments/opinions.

The Hierarchy of Collectability (defined by dealers' asking prices for a Full Knight set ranked from most expensive to least expensive) as of 22 June 2004:

1) Order of Glory 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class medals with accompanying Full Knight award booklet that includes photo of recipient, official military commissariat stamp on photo and date when booklet was issued plus all standard entries.

2) Same as 1) above but the photo does not have the official military commissariat stamp and the booklet lacks an entry for date of issue.

3) Order of Glory 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class medals with accompanying Full Knight award booklet but award booklet is missing the photo, official military commissariat stamp and date booklet was issued.

4) Order of Glory 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class medals with accompanying Ordenskaya Knizhka with or without photo.

5) Order of Glory 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class medals with accompanying Voenniy Bilet.

6) Order of Glory 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class medals with research e.g. Special Awards Card for HSU and Full Knight and/or Standard Awards Card and/or copies of Glory Award Citations.

7) Order of Glory 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class medals that stand alone without accompanying documentation of any sort.

NOTES:

1) Over the past decade I have encountered a few category 1) Full Knight sets that also included the associated Ordenskaya Knizhka (OK). These occasions have been far and few between. In those instances where I have seen them, all of the other accompanying awards (e.g. Red Star or Medal for Valor) were never included/available with the set. For this reason, I have not included a separate ranking for category 1) - 3) Full Knight sets that might also include the OK since, in my judgment, dealers don't necessarily adjust the price upwards unless the orders/medals identified in the OK are also with the group.

2) The above ranking does not consider Full Knight sets that include duplicate Orders of Glory in their make up. While the duplicate(s) may be original in every respect, their presence markedly detracts from the sets' historic/monetary value.

BOTTOM LINE: My observation is that dealers' asking prices for a Full Knight set generally follow the above guideline. I look forward to your thoughts.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Last edited by slava1stclass; 06-24-2004 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 01-30-2003, 06:18 PM   #33
Bravo2Zero
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Slava1stCl
Your Glory set valuation format ignores (for me anyway) the most important criteria...what the recipient did to win his Cavalier 1,2 and 3.I am a keen collector of these and would happily forgo some of the points you mention if the recipients citations are of great interest...and of course, if the awards are genuine with numbers confirmed.Prices seem to range from $2500 to $4500 with a jump to $6000 if there is some good documentation eg newspaper cuttings etc about the recipient.A good example of the higher price material was the wonderful set to one of the soldiers who planted the banner on the top of the Reischstag that was sold a couple of months ago.
I loved the story in a book of photos dealing with the Russian campaigns where it was stated that the banner waver atop the Reischstag had to have his forearm retouched to eliminate the half dozen watches that he was wearing on his wrist!
Let me know as soon as your book is done...I want one!
Kind Regards
Mike D
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Old 01-30-2003, 08:42 PM   #34
slava1stclass
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Mike,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I, too, completely agree that the military pedigree of a given Full Knight set is very important - more on that in a moment. What I attempted to detail above, however, was my generalized observation that Full Knight sets with complete accompanying Full Knight Booklets tend to command greater prices than similar sets with, let's say, the Ordenskaya Knizhka. Why is this so? I think it's owing to the fact that the Full Knight booklet almost always includes a photo, but more importantly it identifies the awarding authorities (i.e., the units) for the 3rd and 2nd Class in addition to listing the serial numbers. You have a complete mini-history in one tight bundle. There will always be exceptions to this norm especially when unique sets come into play e.g., the Full Knight set that was on the market about 2.5 years ago whose Glory 1st had serial # 1.

In terms of military pedigree, I think that it's especially important to consider the winner's entire military record and not just the reasons he/she won the three Glories. Personally, I would quickly snap up a set whose winner had earlier fought at Stalingrad and/or Kursk and then went on with the same unit (now designated Guards because of Stalingrad or Kursk) to win his Glories later in the war. If it so happens that he went on to win his Glory 1st for the capture of Berlin all the better. In my mind, such a set (though not necessarily with the Berlin connection) wins hands down over a set awarded to a Red Army soldier who entered combat much later in the war and won his Glories in less renowned Eastern Front combat operations in Ukraine or Romania for example. For me, the Full Knight's complete combat record is critical.

Of course any Full Knight set with Full Knight Booklet that also includes newspaper clippings and/or family photos and/or archival research only enhances the history/feel of the set (not to mention the price).

Thank you again for letting me expand on my original posting and for your interest in my book.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Last edited by slava1stclass; 06-24-2004 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 01-31-2003, 12:47 AM   #35
Doug
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Slava,

Great post! I agree with your hierarchy of Cavalier groups as you have listed them but have one suggestion / addition. I've looked at probably 50 Cavalier groups in the last six years or so and have noted that by far, most are incomplete. The Glory trio is there and either or both the Cavalier book and OK (I think having both books is really rare) are there but the other orders awarded to the Cavalier are missing. That Red Star, OPW 2, or Valor Medal is long gone. I would place an added level of desirability on the group that is truely complete. If the defense/capture medals and their documents are there too, it would be that much rarer.

Does anyone in our group have any of the small Cavalier biographies that were published in the 1960's & 1970's (other than the big red book that came out a couple of years ago)? I know there were several published and often, there is much more info in these than in the big red one because of their scope.

All the best,

Doug
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Old 01-31-2003, 07:41 AM   #36
slava1stclass
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Doug,

I think you're absolutely correct regarding having a complete "package" of awards to a given Full Knight. Unfortunately, it's something that one encounters very infrequently. For the purposes of this ranking I consciously elected to focus exclusively on the core element - the Orders of Glory and their associated documentation. If the set includes one, more or all of the Full Knight's additional awards the associated effect on the grouping's value is clear.

You raise a good point concerning a set that has both the Ordenskaya Knizhka and the Full Knight booklet. As you correctly stated, this too, is encountered less often than one would think. I'll consider modifying the ranking to take this into account. In my heart of hearts, however, I personally do not believe that having the OK in addition to the Full Knight booklet adds greatly to the desirability/collectability of your average Full Knight set unless the OK indicates additional awards and the awards are included/available with the group. Nonetheless, great observation/suggestion.

Unfortunately, very early on (i.e., the early 1990's) as Glories started to make their way out of the former Soyuz, many Full Knight sets were unintentionally broken up. The emphasis was on the 1st Class given its status/gold content. The associated 2nd and 3rd Class awards were simply disregarded. As the collector market began to develop in the West, the demand from historically-minded collectors for complete Full Knight sets made itself known and these break ups became less frequent. What this collector demand also spawned, however, was the appearance of slight of hand attempts to compile a Full Knight set after the fact by jury rigging 2nd and 3rd Classes to "match" the legitimate 1st Class as a set.

As a final note, judging from the numbers of genuine "loose" Glory 1st Class orders I personally observed in the early to mid-90's (as they first hit the streets in the West), to own a legitimate, matched Full Knight set (regardless of whether it has accompanying supporting documentation or not) is an accomplishment in and of itself.

Thanks again.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all,

At the moment, a well-known dealer is offering a Full Knight set with one accompanying order and many additional medals and badges. As proof of its authenticity, he is including color photos of the Full Knight Award Booklet, the Ordenskaya Knizhka and the Voenny Bilet. No original booklets are included.

While I can understand why the booklets may have been retained by the family (and hopefully not by potential forgers), for the price he's asking, one would be better served by acquiring a set with at least one of the aforementioned documents in hard copy (as opposed to a photograph).

Although acquiring an authentic, complete Full Knight set (with or without documentation) is an accomplishment in and of itself, the presence of the accompanying booklet(s)/paperwork should factor into the price - either upwards or downwards. For that reason alone, I personally would steer clear of this set.

Regards,

slava1stclass
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Old 03-11-2003, 10:58 AM   #37
Ed Maier
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Slava1stclass,

I agree with your conclusions about the price ranges of the complete group. It should be much more expensive with the real documents then without. But to play Devils' advocate, the price on everything has been in a great state of fluxuation, especially in recent months. While we have had threads about rising prices, I recently spoke with a large, well known dealer, and he said that he has almost no stock left as he is sending everything back to Russia because of the higher prices paid there. If this Glory set is newly purchased, the higher price may just be a relection of the new pricing reality and only looks funny compared to groups that were bought before the price jump that have not been repriced.

Just my opinion,
Ed M.
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Old 03-11-2003, 12:06 PM   #38
slava1stclass
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Ed,

You certainly raise a valid point with which I take no argument. I'm not wired into the latest elements affecting price fluctations.

My personal view in this regard, however, is that for but a few dollars more you can often acquire the real thing - one of your current offerings is a case in point.

My point to forum members is not to jump at the first thing you see because the "set" has a lot of things in it.

Accompanying defense medals and badges (as in the case with the set referenced above) are often just eye candy. The core element contributing to any Full Knight set's price/value should center on the Full Knight set itself, any accompanying orders/valor medals and the documentation. Defense, capture, victory medals and badges are more inconsequential in my view as there is no real way to establish a clear authenticity/ownership link to the winner.

If you can get a documented Full Knight set (vice one with photos of the original documents) for roughly the same price, I would take the documented set in each instance.

Regards,

slava1stclass
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Old 05-06-2003, 03:41 PM   #39
Mozzabloke
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Order of Glory variation

This is my highest numbered glory #721271 Im guessing its a late issue because apart from the high serial number its in great condition.

I noticed that it has a underline just like some other modern types of order such as the badge of honour.

Has anyone else seen this before?


Mark
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Old 05-06-2003, 05:10 PM   #40
yolkin
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Mark,

Usually Military Glories did not come with the raised horizontal line.

Does your line look like it is raised or just scratched in? If it is the latter, then it was probably done "post mint production".

Thanks,

Eric
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