When are serial numbers applied

HuliganRS · 03-09-2005, 12:57 PM

Marc,

As far as I understand, the serial numbers are engraved into the award before the enamel goes on! It makes sense! Why would you enamel an award and add S&H + enameled Red Star then put it face down to stamp a S/N??? It's easier to stamp a silver blank and then apply the enamel and additional pieces.

I would love to hear from someone with concrete evidence either way.

Rusty.

Nack · 03-09-2005, 01:03 PM

I would think that stamped serial #s were done like Rusty said--otherwise the stamping process could crack the enamel.

Engraved serial #s could be done after enameling though, and it makes more sense from a practical standpoint to engrave them after they are created I think.

I don't have any evidence either way though.

HuliganRS · 03-09-2005, 01:34 PM

I know for a fact that Orders of Lenin were stamped with the S/N before the enamel & Lenin's bust was applied. If there were problems with the "blank" anywhere during the remaining processes, the bad "blank" was sent to be melted and a new blank was engraved manually with that S/N. That's how there are two variations of Order of Lenin. One has a stapmed S/N and some have hand engraved S/N.

You may ask: Why weren't the S/N re-stamped? That's a good question!
The reason is simple: The Order is made from precious metal and deadlines.
Orders of Lenin were produced in batches of 100. 100 blanks were given and 100 were supposed to be shipped out. It was faster and easier to hand engrave a S/N then to stamp it.

Rusty.

Nota Bene · 03-09-2005, 09:32 PM

Interesting issue! I am just curious how much force has to be applied to stamp a clear serial number on a finished Lenin without damaging the enamel. I believe I have seen a "recycled" Lenin with old serial number erased, and a new one stamped. There was no enamel damage on it. Still, most later variation Lenins with stamped low serial numbers have no evidence that the number was ever changed.

Alexei

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuliganRS

I know for a fact that Orders of Lenin were stamped with the S/N before the enamel & Lenin's bust was applied. If there were problems with the "blank" anywhere during the remaining processes, the bad "blank" was sent to be melted and a new blank was engraved manually with that S/N. That's how there are two variations of Order of Lenin. One has a stapmed S/N and some have hand engraved S/N.

You may ask: Why weren't the S/N re-stamped? That's a good question!
The reason is simple: The Order is made from precious metal and deadlines.
Orders of Lenin were produced in batches of 100. 100 blanks were given and 100 were supposed to be shipped out. It was faster and easier to hand engrave a S/N then to stamp it.

Rusty.

HuliganRS · 03-09-2005, 09:38 PM

Alexei,

Where in the manufacturing process do you feel the S/N is stamped/engraved?

Rusty.

Dolf · 03-09-2005, 09:44 PM

Rusty,

I have not a clue, and I'm just guessing, but I'd bet it's after the Award is entirely finished, am I right?
It just seems logical that they do it in that order, rather than stamping or engraving a S/N before the Award is ready!

Just my two cents,

Dolf

Nota Bene · 03-09-2005, 09:47 PM

Rusty,

I honestly don't know, but I think for the Lenin what you say makes perfect sense.

Alexei

HuliganRS · 03-09-2005, 10:05 PM

Thanks!

I know about Lenins for a act since I read Mint document (see below).
I am curious about the other awards.

Igor Pak said reffering to Order of Lenin #44,368 with hand engraved S/N:

...дело в том, что, как мне кажется, это замена брака, то есть, при производстве Лениных номер штамповался на первых этапах, после штамповки, после этого следовало достаточно много операций, включая эмалирование, в течении которых всякое могло случится, а отправлять нужно было партиями по 100 штук. Если орден браковался, то партия задерживалась, но весь технологический процесс занимает достаточно много времени, при этом отследить замену бракованного номера сложно. Видимо по этому родилось вот такое письмо:

«ГЛАВНОМУ ИНЖЕНЕРУ УПРАВЛЕНИЯ ГОЗНАКА НКФ СССР
тов МУДРИК В.И.

В виду того, что набивка порядкового номера на орденах Ленина производится до прокладки эмали, почти на начальных этапах технологического процесса, не исключается возможность окончательного забракования или отсеивания на исправление орденов с уже набитыми номерами, т. к. после набивки порядкового номера следует еще много трудных технологических операций. В то время, когда не было такого большого выпуска орденов, это не являлось большим препятствием. В настоящий момент создается такое положение, что очень трудно уследить за тем, какие номера орденов отсеялись на дальнейших операциях и имея сотню готовых орденов, ее нельзя пустить на выпуск, т.к. в ней не достает номеров, в результате этого получается большое скопление уже готовой продукции и то, что одни номера могут быть дважды набиты, и пойти в окончательный брак, другие номера могут отсутствовать.
Во избежание этого прошу разрешить изменить технические условия набивки порядкового номера пуансонами на орденах Ленина и заменить нарезкой штихеля.»

К сожалению, я так и не смог добиться от Дурова и Николая даты этого письма, как мне кажется это 1944 или 1945 год. По всей видимости следствием этого письма было, не изменеие ТУ, а разрешение вырезать номер на таких заменах бракованных экземплярах. Минимальный известный нам номер таких знаков 33868, как нам кажется, это 1945 год.

For our non-Russian speaking members:

... The matter is that, as it seems to me, it is replacement of a marriage(spoilage), that is, by manufacture of Order of Lenin number was stamped at the first stages, after stamping many operations followed, switching enamel during which anything could happen, and it was necessary to send in lots on 100 pieces. If the award was rejected, the set was late, but all technological process took a lot of time, thus to make a replacement of defective number was difficult. Probablywhy such letter was made:

" TO THE CHIEF ENGINEER OF MANAGEMENT Goznak НКФ THE USSR
тов Mudrik V. I.

In a kind of that stuffing of a serial number on Lenin's awards is made up to a lining of enamel, almost at the initial stages of technological process, the opportunity final забракования or eliminations on correction of awards with already filled numbers, т is not excluded. To. After stuffing a serial number difficult technological operations still more many. When there was no such big release of awards, it was not the big obstacle. Such position that is very difficult to follow is at the moment created what numbers of awards were eliminated on the further operations and having one hundred ready awards, she(it) cannot be started up on release since in it(her) does not get numbers, as a result of it the big congestion of available production and that one numbers can be twice filled turns out, and go to a final marriage(spoilage), other numbers can be absent.
In order to prevent it I ask to allow to change specifications on stuffing of a serial number punches on Lenin's awards and to replace with cutting штихеля. "

Unfortunately, I and could not achieve from Durov and Nikolay date of this letter as it seems to me is 1944 or 1945. Most likely consequence(investigation) of this letter was, not изменеие THAT, and the sanction to cut out number on such replacements defective copies. Minimal number of such signs 33868 known to us as it seems to us, is 1945.

It's an online translation since I need to run so excuse the writting.

Rusty.

Lapa · 03-10-2005, 06:27 AM

Rusty, Alexei,

We need to identify the various ways in which serial numbers are inscribed:
1. Engraving
2. Rotating tool
3. Stamping
These 3 methods can then be grouped into 2 categories:
. First: engraving and rotating tool. These two methods allow to inscribe the serial number without risk of damage to the finished order.
. Second: stamping - the topic of this thread. This method was used mostly for numbering of the Order of Lenin and of duplicates of some other orders. It is possible to stamp the digits on the finished order by placing it face down on a thick pad of soft leather. However, damage to the enamel CAN SOMETIME occur, depending on the force used to impress the digits into the metal (reminder: gold is a soft metal, especially when nearly pure).

On the face of the letter that Rusty posted, it is indeed possible - even seems likely - that the Orders of Lenin were numbered early in the process. However, I find it very hazardous to extrapolate this less-than-efficient method of manufacturing to the numbering of other Soviet orders, especially since most of them fall in the first category - eg, applying the number to the finished order without risk of damage.

Marc

Dave · 03-10-2005, 10:23 PM

Has anyone ever seen the Mint's stamping maching before?

I ask this because I wonder if their method of stamping was to use a large, several-ton press to do it instead of the common thought of a hammer and number "chisel" (forgot the proper term for them!) If you had a form-fitted foundation (not hard to do), you could put the award in the foundation, and slowly lower the press onto the award, causing it to drastically (but relatively slowly) press the number in. In doing so, it would probably not damage the enamel or anything on the front side, yet leave a nice, deep, clean stamped number.

Just a thought...

Dave

03-09-2005, 12:57 PM	#1
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	Marc, As far as I understand, the serial numbers are engraved into the award before the enamel goes on! It makes sense! Why would you enamel an award and add S&H + enameled Red Star then put it face down to stamp a S/N??? It's easier to stamp a silver blank and then apply the enamel and additional pieces. I would love to hear from someone with concrete evidence either way. Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

03-09-2005, 01:34 PM	#3
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	I know for a fact that Orders of Lenin were stamped with the S/N before the enamel & Lenin's bust was applied. If there were problems with the "blank" anywhere during the remaining processes, the bad "blank" was sent to be melted and a new blank was engraved manually with that S/N. That's how there are two variations of Order of Lenin. One has a stapmed S/N and some have hand engraved S/N. You may ask: Why weren't the S/N re-stamped? That's a good question! The reason is simple: The Order is made from precious metal and deadlines. Orders of Lenin were produced in batches of 100. 100 blanks were given and 100 were supposed to be shipped out. It was faster and easier to hand engrave a S/N then to stamp it. Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193 Last edited by HuliganRS; 03-09-2005 at 01:39 PM.

03-09-2005, 09:38 PM	#5
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	Alexei, Where in the manufacturing process do you feel the S/N is stamped/engraved? Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

03-09-2005, 10:05 PM	#8
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	Thanks! I know about Lenins for a act since I read Mint document (see below). I am curious about the other awards. Igor Pak said reffering to Order of Lenin #44,368 with hand engraved S/N: ...дело в том, что, как мне кажется, это замена брака, то есть, при производстве Лениных номер штамповался на первых этапах, после штамповки, после этого следовало достаточно много операций, включая эмалирование, в течении которых всякое могло случится, а отправлять нужно было партиями по 100 штук. Если орден браковался, то партия задерживалась, но весь технологический процесс занимает достаточно много времени, при этом отследить замену бракованного номера сложно. Видимо по этому родилось вот такое письмо: «ГЛАВНОМУ ИНЖЕНЕРУ УПРАВЛЕНИЯ ГОЗНАКА НКФ СССР тов МУДРИК В.И. В виду того, что набивка порядкового номера на орденах Ленина производится до прокладки эмали, почти на начальных этапах технологического процесса, не исключается возможность окончательного забракования или отсеивания на исправление орденов с уже набитыми номерами, т. к. после набивки порядкового номера следует еще много трудных технологических операций. В то время, когда не было такого большого выпуска орденов, это не являлось большим препятствием. В настоящий момент создается такое положение, что очень трудно уследить за тем, какие номера орденов отсеялись на дальнейших операциях и имея сотню готовых орденов, ее нельзя пустить на выпуск, т.к. в ней не достает номеров, в результате этого получается большое скопление уже готовой продукции и то, что одни номера могут быть дважды набиты, и пойти в окончательный брак, другие номера могут отсутствовать. Во избежание этого прошу разрешить изменить технические условия набивки порядкового номера пуансонами на орденах Ленина и заменить нарезкой штихеля.» К сожалению, я так и не смог добиться от Дурова и Николая даты этого письма, как мне кажется это 1944 или 1945 год. По всей видимости следствием этого письма было, не изменеие ТУ, а разрешение вырезать номер на таких заменах бракованных экземплярах. Минимальный известный нам номер таких знаков 33868, как нам кажется, это 1945 год. For our non-Russian speaking members: ... The matter is that, as it seems to me, it is replacement of a marriage(spoilage), that is, by manufacture of Order of Lenin number was stamped at the first stages, after stamping many operations followed, switching enamel during which anything could happen, and it was necessary to send in lots on 100 pieces. If the award was rejected, the set was late, but all technological process took a lot of time, thus to make a replacement of defective number was difficult. Probablywhy such letter was made: " TO THE CHIEF ENGINEER OF MANAGEMENT Goznak НКФ THE USSR тов Mudrik V. I. In a kind of that stuffing of a serial number on Lenin's awards is made up to a lining of enamel, almost at the initial stages of technological process, the opportunity final забракования or eliminations on correction of awards with already filled numbers, т is not excluded. To. After stuffing a serial number difficult technological operations still more many. When there was no such big release of awards, it was not the big obstacle. Such position that is very difficult to follow is at the moment created what numbers of awards were eliminated on the further operations and having one hundred ready awards, she(it) cannot be started up on release since in it(her) does not get numbers, as a result of it the big congestion of available production and that one numbers can be twice filled turns out, and go to a final marriage(spoilage), other numbers can be absent. In order to prevent it I ask to allow to change specifications on stuffing of a serial number punches on Lenin's awards and to replace with cutting штихеля. " Unfortunately, I and could not achieve from Durov and Nikolay date of this letter as it seems to me is 1944 or 1945. Most likely consequence(investigation) of this letter was, not изменеие THAT, and the sanction to cut out number on such replacements defective copies. Minimal number of such signs 33868 known to us as it seems to us, is 1945. It's an online translation since I need to run so excuse the writting. Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

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03-09-2005, 01:03 PM	#2
Nack Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Buckeye State Age: 46 Posts: 513	I would think that stamped serial #s were done like Rusty said--otherwise the stamping process could crack the enamel. Engraved serial #s could be done after enameling though, and it makes more sense from a practical standpoint to engrave them after they are created I think. I don't have any evidence either way though.

03-09-2005, 09:44 PM	#6
Dolf Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lisbon, Portugal Age: 68 Posts: 572	Rusty, I have not a clue, and I'm just guessing, but I'd bet it's after the Award is entirely finished, am I right? It just seems logical that they do it in that order, rather than stamping or engraving a S/N before the Award is ready! Just my two cents, Dolf

03-09-2005, 09:47 PM	#7
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Rusty, I honestly don't know, but I think for the Lenin what you say makes perfect sense. Alexei

03-10-2005, 06:27 AM	#9
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Rusty, Alexei, We need to identify the various ways in which serial numbers are inscribed: 1. Engraving 2. Rotating tool 3. Stamping These 3 methods can then be grouped into 2 categories: . First: engraving and rotating tool. These two methods allow to inscribe the serial number without risk of damage to the finished order. . Second: stamping - the topic of this thread. This method was used mostly for numbering of the Order of Lenin and of duplicates of some other orders. It is possible to stamp the digits on the finished order by placing it face down on a thick pad of soft leather. However, damage to the enamel CAN SOMETIME occur, depending on the force used to impress the digits into the metal (reminder: gold is a soft metal, especially when nearly pure). On the face of the letter that Rusty posted, it is indeed possible - even seems likely - that the Orders of Lenin were numbered early in the process. However, I find it very hazardous to extrapolate this less-than-efficient method of manufacturing to the numbering of other Soviet orders, especially since most of them fall in the first category - eg, applying the number to the finished order without risk of damage. Marc

03-10-2005, 10:23 PM	#10
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	Has anyone ever seen the Mint's stamping maching before? I ask this because I wonder if their method of stamping was to use a large, several-ton press to do it instead of the common thought of a hammer and number "chisel" (forgot the proper term for them!) If you had a form-fitted foundation (not hard to do), you could put the award in the foundation, and slowly lower the press onto the award, causing it to drastically (but relatively slowly) press the number in. In doing so, it would probably not damage the enamel or anything on the front side, yet leave a nice, deep, clean stamped number. Just a thought... Dave

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