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Old 11-28-2009, 03:36 AM   #1
deValcourt
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Ethics of collecting awards

DISCLAIMER: I've only been a member of this forum for nearly a year and a half, so if the following has been discussed at length previously in other threads, please just give me the link(s) to them and we needn't go on a long tear about the following.

Something Doug said recently got me thinking about a problem that has been buried in the back of my mind for a very long time. In his thread about the FSB flag, he responded to my post about the best pieces being in museums with: "The best peices WERE in museums. Some still are."

So then that nagging problem that I kept in a locked room in my brain got out. The problem is the constant possibility that one may be buying an item that was stolen at some point from either a museum, private collection or simply by a greedy nephew who nicked an elderly Russian's personal awards for some quick cash.

In one particular case Larry ("Tshirtlarry") told me about, he was offered some of the rarest of orders - Suvorovs, Ushakovs, Kutuzovs and others for between $50 and $100 a piece back in the early 90s in New York by a former Russian museum employee whose employer could not afford to pay him, so before emigrating to the US, he took a few pieces from the storeroom (i.e. not displayed) as his "severance." Larry didn't buy them, but this anecdote does present an interesting ethical dilema.

I wouldn't knowly buy something that was taken from a museum, but since I also don't have a record of all the numbered orders and medals that are (or were) in legitimate museums or collections, I or anyone else could potentionally be buying stolen property, especially after it has changed hands a couple of times and the current owner/seller has no knowledge of where it came from.

One of my questions to the gentlemen who patiently work their way through the archives to research orders and numbered medals is this: Has such research ever shown that an item is stolen? The other is: Is it possible to determine that an award is stolen via research?

I'm sure that our database helps keep track of awards that are currently in the hands of honest collectors. But the next question is: what if there is a question about an award being sold by either a dealer who has a questionable history or even simply someone on eBay, and I, as a potential buyer, want to know the pedigree of the award, especially if it is stolen? Is there some way to find out? Is there a Russian website where stolen items' serial numbers are listed, or is the job simply too herculean a task to attempt considering the enormous amount of pilfering that occurred shortly after the breakup of the Soviet Union? The economy was so bad then in Russia that jokes about selling Lenin's body turned out not to be entirely without foundation.

Some of my earliest pieces, before I even considered myself a "serious collector" were either given to me by their, or their surviving families' original owners. Others I bought from some Russians for two or three times what they were asking just because they needed the money and were furious with the Soviet system that had "let them down" and quite frankly wanted them out of their homes/apartments. One widow pensioner told me once that though she loved her husband and wished to honor his memory, she didn't want any reminders of the "government system" that she believed had "killed" her husband at an early age with all their production quotas - "I can't eat his medals. They can at least buy me food and clothes that my pension won't." I gave her a hundred dollar bill and asked her to please keep them, she wouldn't hear of it (and if you know anything about Russian culture and giving things, there was no way I was leaving without them and risking that kind of insult - she poured me a glass of vodka and on her way to get some pickles and "black" bread, I saw her put the two medals in my coat pocket).

Moreover, many younger people who had done their mandatory time in military service gladly gave me their army and navy coats and other soviet military items because they were happy to be rid of them and glad to help an ill-prepared young American stay warm (after removing all insignia). They were also trying to make a "clean break" and get on with making a living in the new economic system.

Either way, I came by some of the best pieces of my collection via gifts (a naval ceremonial dagger is the first that springs to mind) or purchases from individuals or sellers at Izmilevsky Park. Those constitite about 25 percent of my current collection. The rest I bought mostly from the auction site or from sellers I struck up a relationship with through that site. It's the last 75 percent and any future purchases I make that I am wondering about. Which is why since I joined this forum, I have only made purchases of numbered orders, medals and other items through other members I've come to know, respect and trust.

As I said before, I would no more knowingly buy a stolen award, regardless of the price, than I would steal money from the "poor box" in a church. These awards are works of historical and artistic value that have immense importance in both categories and I feel extrememly fortunate to own the ones I do have. Because of them, and with the help of this forum, I have learned and still am learning about a fascinating society, rich with culture and anthropological and social-psychological information. I often write here in posts about the educational value of Soviet awards in terms of understanding how the most famous communist government functioned and tried to motivate the citizens to maintain the system, even when faced with vast corruption and a failing economy and severe shortages of food and other commodities. This last part pertains mostly to post-WWII awards in the labor (production) category.

Having said all of this, I know that if I discovered, by some miraculous means, that an order or medal I have in my collection was originally stolen, especially from a museum, I would want to return it to where or whom it rightfully belongs. However, I fear that definitive proof that this is the case would be next to impossible to obtain (other than Norm's BM incident where he posted the warnings with the serial number regularly). I suspect that the current Russian government probably considers ALL Soviet awards "stolen" or "contraband" if they are not still on Russian soil, but this is a dubious position and one taken for mostly political reasons, to my mind at least.

Thus the same question: Can we know?

Phillip
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Old 11-28-2009, 11:05 AM   #2
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Re: Ethics of collecting awards

Phillip,

When it comes to orders and medals, a couple of years ago the Russian Ministry of Culture published a rather extensive book that listed the SN of all awards stolen or having disappeared.

And no, the Russian government does not consider all Soviet awards held outside of Russia as having been stolen or contraband.

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Old 11-28-2009, 11:35 AM   #3
Norm Braddock
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Re: Ethics of collecting awards

What I can't seem to understand still is that it is illegal to send Soviet awards to Russian/Ukraine or visa versa. Yet, on Ebay there's sellers in Russia/Ukraine. Pls enlighten me. Also, does this apply to badges?

Phillip, I previously sent dozens upon dozens of awards, etc. all over the world and mostly to AU to Head Gefreitor Moderator of General Section Brendan via regular airmail. I posted the awards right at the Canada Post mail outlet. They always arrived at their destinations.

The 59K BM went to AU also and the buyer said it never came. This was an Ebay purchase. Now Brendan and I don't rip people off. And his story is BS!
I update the post as many many people around the world who are in this hobby come to the site. Ha ha dirtbag-try and move the item. Sure, there's an element that don't care but it takes me 30 seconds to update it so what th hell.lol

The sad reality is that now good people have to incur the cost of registered mail or that with tracking capability.
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:12 PM   #4
Tretov
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Re: Ethics of collecting awards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapusta Norm View Post
What I can't seem to understand still is that it is illegal to send Soviet awards to Russian/Ukraine or visa versa. Yet, on Ebay there's sellers in Russia/Ukraine. Pls enlighten me.
I believe they "escape" through smuggling or by bribing customs.
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:20 PM   #5
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Re: Ethics of collecting awards

A great question (distilled: is it ethical to acquire something while not being able to ascertain if it’s stolen?) that is easily ignored.

The answer for me is “Probably not, but it’s such a minor ethical violation that I ignore it.”

Like it or not the world is all gray, there are degrees of everything. My ethics say it’s bad to steal, therefore bad to benefit from stealing, participate in stealing, etc. Strictly speaking then all my actions should be evaluated against that ethic. But that would make me 1) crazy, 2) boring, and 3) friendless (except for other fanatics, and who wants them for friends?). Where would I live? All land was stolen from the original inhabitants. What would I eat? People’s labor is stolen all the time in the food industry. What would I wear? Look into the clothing industry, yes even locally, and the amount of exploitation/corruption might surprise you. On and on.

The world being gray is not license, not an excuse to do bad. That reductio ad absurdum is the lazy or evil man’s argument – “It doesn’t matter what I do, because everything is corrupt! Therefore it’s not bad to steal.” The real result of the grayness is that one must actually think about the question. Often. And make decisions based on the degree of ethical violation.

I ran by surprise into my personal limit a couple of years ago; whether or not to bid on actual pages (not copies/pictures) from “the archives.” To my mind they have to be stolen, whether on purpose, or looted, or “found,” it’s obvious that they didn’t make it out into the wide world legitimately. Found that I couldn’t, in good conscience, buy them. Surprised me actually, because they look great, and would be cool to own. But they’re stolen… sigh.

Anyway, it’s completely individual, and IMO inevitable in a pursuit like this. Acquiring rare/unique things means that one WILL be presented with the question. It’s good to think on it.
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:38 PM   #6
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Re: Ethics of collecting awards

Thank you all for your replies. I have moments when ideas like this one simply have to be aired.

Marc, I would love to know how to access the list you mention (if possible). Perhaps we could keep a link to it here (Art willing) for reference.

Norm, I only knew about the situation from what was in the warning posts. I assumed that the BM had been stolen from you, and in a sense I guess it was. I hope you didn't think I was pointing an accusing finger at you or anyone else on this forum I communicate with. This place is "sacred ground" and you guys are the "monks" who tend it and are beyond reproach - excuse the lame analogy.

Patrick, you are correct. That dagger I mentioned was the only thing I was truly worried about customs stopping me for. Back then, the laws were not nearly as extensive or enforced as they should be now.

Which is the perfect segue into Eryk's reply. I agree with everything you said. And thank you for paraphrasing my lengthy ethical question. My crisis of conscience has passed now, but your last lines are worth repeating:

"Acquiring rare/unique things means that one WILL be presented with the question. It’s good to think on it." - Eryk

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