divisional insignia - Page 2

vikingraider1 · 08-20-2003, 01:36 PM

What otlichnik says about unit insignia is definately true. In the caseof the Germans, 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS Panzer Divisions actually changed their unit insignia in the build up to the battle of Kursk in case Soviet inteligence would gain information on which units were massing in the area. they used a series of horizontal and vertical bars as you probably know.

Stephende · 08-20-2003, 01:47 PM

In my limited review of archival photos from Western and Soviet sources I have only seen a few individualized markings. Mostly tanks and trucks with typical "factory" slogans. However, one fairly famous photo stands out in my mind. Parked in front of the burned out Reichstag in May 1945 is a soviet tank (if memory serves, I think a T-38) with the nick-name of "Combat Girlfriend" painted on it. It stands out because it is so unique.

T-28A · 08-21-2003, 03:15 AM

Gentlemen,

I'm that Ukrainian, hello and glad to see you.
Unfortunately I have to disagree with all your arguments, as they are all of theoretical origins and aren't comparable with facts.
In 1999 Russian authors M.Kolomietz and I.Moschanskiy released a monography devoted to the camouflage, insignias and markings of Soviet vehicles for a period from 1930 till 1945. They made a huge work finding and sorting various facts devoted to the theme, and, gentlemen, aside of photos (that really are not as informative as represents usually a single tank), there are other sources, such as archival documents, witnesses (i.e. the soldiers who served in these units) etc.
Yes, far not all Soviet units had insignias. But the number of known units alone is large enough to say that there was quite serious use of insignias in the Red Army.
Let me describe some concepts of their monography.
Before 1943 there were only occasional cases of unit's insignias used, mostly for smaller units (see below for 231st Corps Artillery Regiment). Since 1943, though, their use became quite wide and reached the corps level. I.e. the corps-level insignias had some detail, geometric or stylistic, that allowed to associate all subunit's insignias with this corps and in the same time, all the subunits' insignias had some differences. Let's count some of the most studied (letters are given in their English transcription):
23rd Tank Corps. Corps' insignia is the white rhombus. Corps' integral brigades had the different letters inside the rhombus: 3rd TBr had letter "V", 39th TBr - "G", 135th TBr - letter "D".
2nd Guards Tank Corps. Corps's insignia is the archer's arrow. Corps' integral brigades had the different letters above the arrow: 4th Guards TBr - "L", 25th Guards TBr - "B", 26th Guards TBr - "I". Later on war, the letters were replaced with the 2-digits code of the unit under the arrow (arrow itself persisted).
10th Guards Tank Corps. Corps' insignia is the comb with teeth oriented downward. Corps integral brigades had different number of teeth: 61st Guards TBr - 1 tooth, 62nd Guards TBr - 2 teeth, 63rd Guards TBr - 3 teeth.
7th Guards Tank Corps. Corps' insignia is the twin circle. Corps integral brigades had the different numbers in the center of the circle: 54th Guards TBr - "1", 55th Guards TBr - "2", 56th Guards TBr - "3".
11th Guards Tank Corps. Corps' insignia is horisontal white chevron 200mm long.Integral brigades had different numbers of chevrons: 40th Guards TBr - 1, 44th Guards Tbr - 2, 45th Guards TBr - 3.
8th Guards Tank Corps. All the integral tank units had the same insignia (.] (like smile, here it is rotated 90*)
7th Mech Corps. Corps insignia is short upward oriented arrow. Corps integral units: 41st TBr - arrow alone, 16th Mech Br - arrow in the triangle, 63rd Mech Br - arrow in the circle, 64th Mech Br - arrow in the rectangle.
4th Guards Mech Corps. The following information is correct for August 1944 - May 1945 only. Corps' insignias were animals, different for all subunits: ravaged bear for 36th Guards TBr, 13th Guards Mech Br - deer, 14th Guards Mech Br - horse, 15th Guards Mech Br - swallow, 292nd SPG Regiment - rhinoceros, 62nd Motorcycle Bn - giraffe.
Some other interesting insignias:
8th SPG Bde (SU-76). Brigade's insignia was the flying eagle in the circle. It interesting that even brigade's gas cistern trucks had this insignia;
1047th SPG Regiment (SU-85). Regimental insignia was heraldic shield with the letter K inside (as the honorary regiment's name was "Kalinikovichskiy"). Plus ever SU-85 in the brigade had as much as two (!) red stars at each hull side, and every SPG also had the title "Death to fascist's occupants!"
It is also should be said about earlier, more rare insignias. Hope you'll forgive me if I'll simply paste here the story that I told Panzermeyer already.
"231st Corps Artillery Regiment (15th Rifle Corps of 5th Army) in June-September 1941 had its insignias as following: knight's shield was the general regimental symbol (placed at all trucks and utility vehicles), while each battalion had its one personal symbol inside the regimental shield: 1st Bn (107mm) battalion - camel, 2nd (mixed 122mm and 107mm) - stork, 3rd (152mm) - fir and 4th (artillery recon) - trapezium., hope this will clear the matter a bit. The described insignias (camel etc) appeared yet in 20s-30s. For example, the camel was chosen because the 231st Corps Rgt was created from 8th Corps Rgt, who in turn was developed from 8th Heavy Art Bn in early 30s. Therefore its 1st Bn was considered as a direct descendant of 8th Heavy Bn, and had the camel as the insignia, because during the Civil War 8th Bn was fighting in the Middle Asian deserts (modern Kazakhstan etc). Interesting enough, that in combat all the batteries had their callsigns assigned considering their insignias. For 1st Bn it was always animals, 2nd - birds, 3rd - trees and 4th - geometry. Plus all the batteries of the same battalion had their callsigns started with the same letter. For example in August 1941 4th Battery (2nd Bn) had callsign Flamingo, 5th Battery - Filin [eagle-owl], 6th Battery - Feniks. These rules were many years old and were very seriously obeyed by all the regimental personnel. Curious, but among the staff books and documents there was old Brehm's "The life of animals and birds" book that was used by 1st Lt Dymnich, assistant of regimental Aid de Camp, to define new callsigns at new positions. Finally, it is interesting to add one detail. When the regiment was supporting infantry from 15th Rifle Corps near Emilchino (north of Novograd-Volynsk), early morning German SMG assault team unexpectedly appeared at the positions of first battery from behind. Crews abandoned their guns and retreated to the forest. Regrouping, the tried to retake the guns - or, at least, remove optical sights, breaches and the insignias from the gun shields (as the very serious regimental tradition was to remove insignias before sending guns off the regiment for repair or something - while here was not repair but the enemy could make a use of them!). Assault for battery positions began, amidst of firefight several gun crew members began to erase the insignias from gun shields but were quickly killed. Taking serious losses, crew teams retreated again. By midday, with the help of artillerists of 2nd Battery, the infiltrated German group was eliminated and guns recovered. But as a tribute to fell artillerists who tried to save the battery's symbol, 1st Battery then have two insignias: first was the standard knight's shield with a camel, second was a half-erased knight's shield."
Finally I could mention a pair of air insignias (there were more of them but I'm not a great fan of aviation): first is General E.Savitskiy's 3rd Fighter Air Corps, whom he commanded since winter 1942 till the end of war. All the Fighter Air Divisions and integral Regiments had the "Flying star" insignia at all planes - the star with the wings. Finally, all the fighter pilots of the squdron commanded by S.Amet-Khan (9th Guards Fighter Air Regiment) had the black eagle at the motor chamber and propeller cock colored yellow.
Hope you had the patience to read all this till the very end :D

Yours,
Pavel

T-28A · 08-21-2003, 03:27 AM

Sorry, some addition: I asked and several guys kindly reminded me several very interesting cases:
In 3rd Guards TBr every tank has it's own personal first name, written at the armour. Curious, that in the same company all the tanks had their names started with the same letter.
Former 1st Lieutenant of 3rd Guards Cav Corps Ivan A. Yakushin remembers: "All our trucks, vagons, and tanks - even liaison planes had the corps insignia - horse's head and number 3. Later it was changed for the horseshoe and the number 3. It was very important for a mobile unit to have such an insignia, so you could always find out who is the owner of certain equipment - so all the mobile corps had their insignias" Note his words "ALL the mobile corps..."!
I hope all of that is enough to prove the point.

DougD · 08-21-2003, 11:38 AM

...i don't think that we are speaking about the same thing. What PM was asking about, in our eyes, would be the same as US divisional patches and insignia. No one here is saying there were no unit ID marks such as you mention on tanks and such, but they were not really divisional insignia in the way western armies thought of them; colorful arm patches, and vehicle insignia that were official and standard for the unit.

The soviet units that did have these colorful markings, such as the shield you mention, were very rare. If you compare the number of units with these insignia, and the total number of units in the red army, then I would say they were very rare.

We are all familiar with names and slogans on the side of Russian aircraft and tanks, but again, these were not comparable to western unit insignia.

Thank you for informing us of all types of sources, but I think we are aware of them.

DougD

T-28A · 08-21-2003, 11:59 AM

Hello,

Insignias like attached? Then you're right, of course.

Quote:

Originally posted by DougD

No one here is saying there were no unit ID marks such as you mention on tanks and such <...>

The following phrases by Otlichnik:

"The list shows what are clearly tactical markings - rows, lines, bars, crosses, etc. - as well as individual vehicle identifiers - such as numbers or letters in diamonds, etc. In many of the cases I think what is shown would have only been seen on one specific tank, not all in a unit.
...
As for the more artistic ones - animals - they would either be individual art or very unofficial unit markings. I would want to see such a marking on a number of vehicles before I would think it was not just an individual marking. Individual art would be tolerated more than a unit marking - individual art tells enemy intelligence nothing, a unit marking, even if unoffial does provide potentiall valuable info to enemy intell. Operational security was the responsibility of SMERSH units to police.
Some markings may come from post-war when security was more lax. "

These phrases deals exactly with the markings I'd described. And these statements are very different from the real picture and that's the problem that I wanted to clear.

Yours,
Pavel

HuliganRS · 08-21-2003, 12:49 PM

Pavel,

The patch above is modern issue Ukranian patch.

What PM is looking for are the same type of patches for WWII period.

Hope this clarifies things.

T-28A · 08-21-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HuliganRS

The patch above is modern issue Ukranian patch.

I know :D Ok, lets describe it VERY detailed.
Note the text in the letter was: "LIKE attached?" In other words - am I understand DougD right and under insignia he means something LIKE seen on the attached picture? I don't have shots of American etc WW2 patches. How else could I ask if DougD means exactly what I understand he means? Finally, the words follow there: "Then you're right of course".
I wasted my time posting all that stuff with markings above not to prove the Insignia (that would be called "Emblema chasti" in Russian) are the same as Tactical Markings ("Takticheskiy opoznavatelniy znak chasti"). I know it is not the same, believe me, it is even written differently :D Yes, I was using the word "Insignia" in a wrong way, so forgive me, it is my fluent problem with English words - from DougD's post I saw the Divisional Insignia means Emblema, not Znak. The example of such Emblema, 24th Mech Division's, was attached so that I could be sure that I understood everything correct.

Oh my, had we finally broke through this?

Yours,
Pavel

DougD · 08-21-2003, 02:53 PM

...yes, the patch would be an example of what the original thread was about; i.e lack of these during the Soviet / WWII era.

As moderator, please keep the discourse civil, no need to get defensive about others posts or about misreading, etc.

DougD

T-28A · 08-21-2003, 08:52 PM

Ok, thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by DougD

As moderator, please keep the discourse civil, no need to get defensive about others posts or about misreading, etc.

DougD

Sorry.

08-20-2003, 01:36 PM	#11
vikingraider1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London, Home of West Ham United Age: 54 Posts: 328	What otlichnik says about unit insignia is definately true. In the caseof the Germans, 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS Panzer Divisions actually changed their unit insignia in the build up to the battle of Kursk in case Soviet inteligence would gain information on which units were massing in the area. they used a series of horizontal and vertical bars as you probably know. __________________ "We can truly say that the whole circuit of the earth is girdled with the graves of our dead... and, in the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon earth through the years to come, than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war." King George V, Flanders, 1922

08-20-2003, 01:47 PM	#12
Stephende Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 20	In my limited review of archival photos from Western and Soviet sources I have only seen a few individualized markings. Mostly tanks and trucks with typical "factory" slogans. However, one fairly famous photo stands out in my mind. Parked in front of the burned out Reichstag in May 1945 is a soviet tank (if memory serves, I think a T-38) with the nick-name of "Combat Girlfriend" painted on it. It stands out because it is so unique. __________________ "We shall avenge those burned in the devil's ovens, avenge those who suffocated in the gas chambers, avenge the murdered and the martyred. We shall exact a brutal revenge for everything." Marshal Zhukov

08-21-2003, 11:38 AM	#15
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	the point... ...i don't think that we are speaking about the same thing. What PM was asking about, in our eyes, would be the same as US divisional patches and insignia. No one here is saying there were no unit ID marks such as you mention on tanks and such, but they were not really divisional insignia in the way western armies thought of them; colorful arm patches, and vehicle insignia that were official and standard for the unit. The soviet units that did have these colorful markings, such as the shield you mention, were very rare. If you compare the number of units with these insignia, and the total number of units in the red army, then I would say they were very rare. We are all familiar with names and slogans on the side of Russian aircraft and tanks, but again, these were not comparable to western unit insignia. Thank you for informing us of all types of sources, but I think we are aware of them. DougD

08-21-2003, 12:49 PM	#17
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	Pavel, The patch above is modern issue Ukranian patch. What PM is looking for are the same type of patches for WWII period. Hope this clarifies things. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

08-21-2003, 02:53 PM	#19
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	patch.... ...yes, the patch would be an example of what the original thread was about; i.e lack of these during the Soviet / WWII era. As moderator, please keep the discourse civil, no need to get defensive about others posts or about misreading, etc. DougD

08-21-2003, 03:15 AM	#13
T-28A New Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 6	Gentlemen, I'm that Ukrainian, hello and glad to see you. Unfortunately I have to disagree with all your arguments, as they are all of theoretical origins and aren't comparable with facts. In 1999 Russian authors M.Kolomietz and I.Moschanskiy released a monography devoted to the camouflage, insignias and markings of Soviet vehicles for a period from 1930 till 1945. They made a huge work finding and sorting various facts devoted to the theme, and, gentlemen, aside of photos (that really are not as informative as represents usually a single tank), there are other sources, such as archival documents, witnesses (i.e. the soldiers who served in these units) etc. Yes, far not all Soviet units had insignias. But the number of known units alone is large enough to say that there was quite serious use of insignias in the Red Army. Let me describe some concepts of their monography. Before 1943 there were only occasional cases of unit's insignias used, mostly for smaller units (see below for 231st Corps Artillery Regiment). Since 1943, though, their use became quite wide and reached the corps level. I.e. the corps-level insignias had some detail, geometric or stylistic, that allowed to associate all subunit's insignias with this corps and in the same time, all the subunits' insignias had some differences. Let's count some of the most studied (letters are given in their English transcription): 23rd Tank Corps. Corps' insignia is the white rhombus. Corps' integral brigades had the different letters inside the rhombus: 3rd TBr had letter "V", 39th TBr - "G", 135th TBr - letter "D". 2nd Guards Tank Corps. Corps's insignia is the archer's arrow. Corps' integral brigades had the different letters above the arrow: 4th Guards TBr - "L", 25th Guards TBr - "B", 26th Guards TBr - "I". Later on war, the letters were replaced with the 2-digits code of the unit under the arrow (arrow itself persisted). 10th Guards Tank Corps. Corps' insignia is the comb with teeth oriented downward. Corps integral brigades had different number of teeth: 61st Guards TBr - 1 tooth, 62nd Guards TBr - 2 teeth, 63rd Guards TBr - 3 teeth. 7th Guards Tank Corps. Corps' insignia is the twin circle. Corps integral brigades had the different numbers in the center of the circle: 54th Guards TBr - "1", 55th Guards TBr - "2", 56th Guards TBr - "3". 11th Guards Tank Corps. Corps' insignia is horisontal white chevron 200mm long.Integral brigades had different numbers of chevrons: 40th Guards TBr - 1, 44th Guards Tbr - 2, 45th Guards TBr - 3. 8th Guards Tank Corps. All the integral tank units had the same insignia (.] (like smile, here it is rotated 90*) 7th Mech Corps. Corps insignia is short upward oriented arrow. Corps integral units: 41st TBr - arrow alone, 16th Mech Br - arrow in the triangle, 63rd Mech Br - arrow in the circle, 64th Mech Br - arrow in the rectangle. 4th Guards Mech Corps. The following information is correct for August 1944 - May 1945 only. Corps' insignias were animals, different for all subunits: ravaged bear for 36th Guards TBr, 13th Guards Mech Br - deer, 14th Guards Mech Br - horse, 15th Guards Mech Br - swallow, 292nd SPG Regiment - rhinoceros, 62nd Motorcycle Bn - giraffe. Some other interesting insignias: 8th SPG Bde (SU-76). Brigade's insignia was the flying eagle in the circle. It interesting that even brigade's gas cistern trucks had this insignia; 1047th SPG Regiment (SU-85). Regimental insignia was heraldic shield with the letter K inside (as the honorary regiment's name was "Kalinikovichskiy"). Plus ever SU-85 in the brigade had as much as two (!) red stars at each hull side, and every SPG also had the title "Death to fascist's occupants!" It is also should be said about earlier, more rare insignias. Hope you'll forgive me if I'll simply paste here the story that I told Panzermeyer already. "231st Corps Artillery Regiment (15th Rifle Corps of 5th Army) in June-September 1941 had its insignias as following: knight's shield was the general regimental symbol (placed at all trucks and utility vehicles), while each battalion had its one personal symbol inside the regimental shield: 1st Bn (107mm) battalion - camel, 2nd (mixed 122mm and 107mm) - stork, 3rd (152mm) - fir and 4th (artillery recon) - trapezium., hope this will clear the matter a bit. The described insignias (camel etc) appeared yet in 20s-30s. For example, the camel was chosen because the 231st Corps Rgt was created from 8th Corps Rgt, who in turn was developed from 8th Heavy Art Bn in early 30s. Therefore its 1st Bn was considered as a direct descendant of 8th Heavy Bn, and had the camel as the insignia, because during the Civil War 8th Bn was fighting in the Middle Asian deserts (modern Kazakhstan etc). Interesting enough, that in combat all the batteries had their callsigns assigned considering their insignias. For 1st Bn it was always animals, 2nd - birds, 3rd - trees and 4th - geometry. Plus all the batteries of the same battalion had their callsigns started with the same letter. For example in August 1941 4th Battery (2nd Bn) had callsign Flamingo, 5th Battery - Filin [eagle-owl], 6th Battery - Feniks. These rules were many years old and were very seriously obeyed by all the regimental personnel. Curious, but among the staff books and documents there was old Brehm's "The life of animals and birds" book that was used by 1st Lt Dymnich, assistant of regimental Aid de Camp, to define new callsigns at new positions. Finally, it is interesting to add one detail. When the regiment was supporting infantry from 15th Rifle Corps near Emilchino (north of Novograd-Volynsk), early morning German SMG assault team unexpectedly appeared at the positions of first battery from behind. Crews abandoned their guns and retreated to the forest. Regrouping, the tried to retake the guns - or, at least, remove optical sights, breaches and the insignias from the gun shields (as the very serious regimental tradition was to remove insignias before sending guns off the regiment for repair or something - while here was not repair but the enemy could make a use of them!). Assault for battery positions began, amidst of firefight several gun crew members began to erase the insignias from gun shields but were quickly killed. Taking serious losses, crew teams retreated again. By midday, with the help of artillerists of 2nd Battery, the infiltrated German group was eliminated and guns recovered. But as a tribute to fell artillerists who tried to save the battery's symbol, 1st Battery then have two insignias: first was the standard knight's shield with a camel, second was a half-erased knight's shield." Finally I could mention a pair of air insignias (there were more of them but I'm not a great fan of aviation): first is General E.Savitskiy's 3rd Fighter Air Corps, whom he commanded since winter 1942 till the end of war. All the Fighter Air Divisions and integral Regiments had the "Flying star" insignia at all planes - the star with the wings. Finally, all the fighter pilots of the squdron commanded by S.Amet-Khan (9th Guards Fighter Air Regiment) had the black eagle at the motor chamber and propeller cock colored yellow. Hope you had the patience to read all this till the very end :D Yours, Pavel

08-21-2003, 03:27 AM	#14
T-28A New Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 6	Sorry, some addition: I asked and several guys kindly reminded me several very interesting cases: In 3rd Guards TBr every tank has it's own personal first name, written at the armour. Curious, that in the same company all the tanks had their names started with the same letter. Former 1st Lieutenant of 3rd Guards Cav Corps Ivan A. Yakushin remembers: "All our trucks, vagons, and tanks - even liaison planes had the corps insignia - horse's head and number 3. Later it was changed for the horseshoe and the number 3. It was very important for a mobile unit to have such an insignia, so you could always find out who is the owner of certain equipment - so all the mobile corps had their insignias" Note his words "ALL the mobile corps..."! I hope all of that is enough to prove the point.

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