Serial numbers of faked awards

[Tal Inbar]

Hello

I will like to see here any known S/N of a faked/copy award.

If someone sold a copy, with a s/n it will help others to know. If someone was offerd a fake/copy, didn't buy it but know the s/n - it will help others.

Tal

[Nota Bene]

Tal,

This is actually a terrific idea. We don't need a special database for it. We can just post short messages in this thread with the serial number, and maybe a brief description.

Alexei

[Tal Inbar]

Faked order of Alexander Nevsky (S/N 6318) was sold on ebay. Watch it! It may be offerd again.

[Nota Bene]

*** Originally posted by Jonh. Moved here by the moderator ***

My first contribution,
a couple of days ago was offered medals that originated in Russia I am told. Absolutely perfect they looked at first sight but on closer inspection:
1) Suvorov 3rd class no. 1635 three rivets, silver but weight was wrong, under magnifying glass piece showed traces of casting, medailon of Suvorov profile not sufficiently detailed, on its side trace of overflow when pouring into cast I suspect, came with white washed document and added entry that was somewhat blurred...550 USD asking price.

2) B. Khmelniski 1st class two rivets, great piece of art, no 215, real gold and silver again but total weight 49g. Also showed signs of cast job with pock marks and even file traces on side. Very skillful patina, definitely fooled me for a while as did the real gold, could I have made a mistake? 2600,- USD.

Both pieces above had screw post that was not soldered but screwed into base. Some tell me that this is a definite no no. Is this true?

3) Hero of Soviet Union no. 6920 also with changed order booklet (as above tell tale signs of tampering), correct weight, real gold, but again pock marks. suspension not original and even fastening nut showed traces of casting. Also the reverse was suspect with the hand applied denting, too close to letters. 900 USD.

4) a whole bunch of 20 years RKKA but abot that opn the appropriate thread... 50 buck a shot!!!

[Christophe]

Still visiting the site as a new member, and coming back to Tal's idea, that I find excellent :

Why not put in place somewhere in this Forum such a database, with the following data :
* Type of order or medal.
* SN
* Date and place of last appearance on the market.

I know it is not an easy stuff, but is worthwile !! Everyone could bring its input if any...

Art, Tal, all the others, your comments ?

Ch.

[Nota Bene]

Gentlemen,

I was initially a big fan of this idea, but now I am not so sure. For instance, I know that one of the forum members has a fake Lenin # 1586. The problem is that I also have one with the same serial number, except that mine is genuine and has PMD's certificate.

Alexei

[Christophe]

That's an issue...

It is obviously out of question to blacklist real awards.
An easy way to make a difference would be to post the associated picture... but a lot of drawbacks and constraints (size of the file, availability, rights...).

But, in fact, the pb is that it is not because their SN is not published that fakes do not exist... And vice-versa ! With such a PMD certificate, there is no risk (for the real awards)... and this competition (fake / real) will still remain.
The items that could suffer from this database have to be the fakes in competition with real and recognized awards, and not the contrary.

I personally think such a database could be helpful... but I agree quite difficult to set. A winning formula has just to be found. Let's all think about it.

:cool: :cool:

Ch.

[Lapa]

I think this may not necessarily be a good idea. A serial number is only one of a wide variety of hints that indicate that an award is genuine or not.

I am not trying to reopen another discussion here about publishing information vs keeping it confidential, but I believe this serial number only approach may actually create more aggravation for us collectors than anything else.

Just imagine that you own a perfectly genuine order or medal that is not necessarily worth getting a PMD certificate for (I am not talking here about the rarefied atmosphere of the top level ones). Then, one day, the serial number of YOUR genuine order or medal is published here. What are you to do? Get a $70 certificate from Paul, or be stuck for the rest of your natural life trying to convince everybody around that your order/medal happens to be the genuine one, not the fake everybody else has heard of.

If we are to publish such information about fakes, it should be comprehensive, not just bits and pieces that can lead to even more confusion in the collecting fraternity. And to make mine one of the arguments that were opposed to my views in the aforementioned thread, publishing serial numbers will only help fakers as they simply will change the one they are using. By the way, this will indeed be much easier and no trouble for them to do than to alter the dies or molds they use.

Once again, just my point of view.

Marc

[Christophe]

I agree on the necessity for this database of being comprehensive.

But, indeed, this is highly irrealistic ! :confused:

I surely don't want to reopen a already concluded debate by members much more expert than I am... let's go forward !

If I (or any member else) has the "magic" formula, or any new idea or concept, I (we)'ll post it.
:)

Cheers.

Ch.

PS : Moreover, anyone can elaborate his owns 'one.