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General And Slightly Off Topic Talk Forum for exchanging ideas and talking about general issues without straying too far off topic.

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Old 05-17-2002, 05:30 PM   #31
CZ
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Ed,

I agree 100% with you: wide price ranges - of course, but price ranges. Do you have a 6-digit-Red-Star for USD 17,- ? I never found one in Vienna at all.

My opinion ist, that that prices at the moment are idiotically low, if you consider what stands behind such an award: Glory 3cl for a small McDonalds lunch for you and your family? That's ****!

Wait for the demand from Russia and you will make the business of your life. All the SU-awards of the highest level were sold within some hours to members of the "Russian Mafia" in Vienna - 8 years ago. In 1994, when I just paid the USD 1.200,- to the dealer in Vienna for the "Glory-Trio" and put the 3 awards + booklet into my bag, the telephone of the dealer was ringing with a Russian person at the line, who terrible wanted to buy the "Glory-Trio", but the awards where already in my bag and they dealer received the USD 1.200,- in cash.... (the "Glory-Trio" and many other - rather expensive - awards were financed by my (now) 93-years-old grand mother, Leopoldine Makas, who is at excellent health and still remembers the funeral of our last emporer in Austria in 1916).

We have to remember the heroic deeds of the Soviet citizens during WWII.

So: Wide price ranges are better than nothing at all - I think.

Regards from Vienna
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Old 05-17-2002, 05:41 PM   #32
Art
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It seems logical that prices should be determined by supply and demand. If prices go up, no one will buy which means no one in Russia will be selling awards outside of Russia. I don't see much room for price increases..especially the common stuff below R3. The same problems have been going on with the antiques and collectibles business since it was born.

My parents deal in antiques..many times they get discouraged from buying at estate sales because dealers will bid the prices up until they are above what they are really worth. Dealers buy for their stores. They think that everyone will pay their outrageous prices and this isn't the case. They wind up stuck with alot of overpriced stuff and no where to go with it. Eventually they need to mark down the price and hope someone will see the markdown and think the dealer is broke or insane.

Art
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Old 05-17-2002, 10:23 PM   #33
Ed Maier
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Christian,

That I agree on 100 %.

I wish I had Red Stars with 6 digits for $17. This was a price that a fellow board member listed as a fair price for this piece. I can't sell them for that as I would loose money. It was just an example of the price problems I believed could crop up with this issues as I have no doubt that this member was able to buy an excellent piece for this price. It just isn't reflective of the market as a whole for me as a collector and a dealer.

You got a great deal on the Glory tio and when you add the history behind it it makes it even better. I can research awards in the Russian Archives, and I research every group in my collection. The "story" behind the pieces and people make the groups priceless to me. Its my favorite part of collecting Soviet Orders and Medals.

Take care,
Ed
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Old 05-17-2002, 11:52 PM   #34
Dat Nguyen
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"the new Herefurth catalog"

>>I totally agree with Ed and Alexie regarding prices in Russia, I work in Azerbaijan and find most collectors here use the new Herefurth catalog as a starting level for their prices and are unwilling to accept less than it shows for orders or medals.<<

Ahhhhh, the dreaded Herefurth catalog. I can still remember when the first one came out. I was stationed in Germany from 91-97 and went to the flea market in Frankfurt almost every saturday to look at the Russian militaria. Immediately after the Herefurth catalog was published, the prices went through the roof. Almost every vendors had a copy of the catalog in their pocket to "justify" the prices of the medal/order...much much unhappiness

If I had to do it all over again, I would have printed my own price guide and make a killing on sellling the price guide

Dat
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Old 05-18-2002, 03:12 AM   #35
mcwirsk
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Guys

I have been redaing your comments with great interest. I would like to add my pennys worth if I may.

As with other collecting medal from other countries, The Soviet stuff is relatively new on the market. Its only been avaiable for the past few years and thus there a a development phase that is required. I deal with a lot of "old time" collectors in SA and in the early days they collected type medals. ie one of each type and pricing was tottaly dependent on the differenet variations. Groups and the awardee meant nothing. This then changed and the awardee became important. So now they collected the same medals but to different units or ranks. This has changed again and now they collect groups of medals and the research is the most important factor. Price is dependent on the completeness of the group and also the reasons for the awards.

If you log onto any of the big UK auction sites you will see that if a group is incomplete (I am talking non soviet awards) then the value falls away. And if the action for the award is good the prices are extremely high. I am starting to see this happen with Soviet awards. Time will come when there will be less interest in variations and more on the award citations. Varitaions are only a factor of timing and has very little to do with the deed. I would rather have a simple late issue red star with a fantastic citation for good bravery than a rare version rivet version for supplying soup under difficul conditions.

I have made a rule that I only break under extreme conditions that I will will only buy complete groups. The exceptions I make is for good citations. I do this becuase I beleive Soviet award collecting will move towards this in the future.

The value is in the deed not the medal.

What do you guys think.

regards

Munroe
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Old 05-18-2002, 03:31 AM   #36
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It's the man and not the metal, to true!

But as most are unresearchable ( or to much trouble for the average non speaking Russain language collector) I think it will be earlier versions that sell for more as pre war/war Lenins were awarded for great deeds, whilst later they became long service medals.

So variations that indicate a period preferable War or pre War will determine price.

Variations also can prove the rarity which I believe is a factor and will remain a factor. A variation that is of similar quantity is novelty factor only and does not indicate a price rise. rarity does.

A three rivet Red Star will normally indicate service in the fight against the Finns so this also gives it a historical slant as well.

Actually I agree with your sentiment about deeds and not metal but age and variations are normally the only indicator that the awardee did something worthwhile for it.

The Red banner and Red star were hard won before and during the war afterwards they became Pakazuha (BS)

So I'll stick with variations to indicate likely combat deeds and medals earned.

Just a ramble

regards chris

well normally red stars are common but some you can be sure were earned the hard way!

Chris
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Old 05-18-2002, 03:17 PM   #37
Ed Maier
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Art,

I totally agree with you if we were dealing in the real world, but we are dealing with Russia. Just remember the old saying about life in Russia, "without vodka it doesn't make any sense."

Ed
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Old 05-18-2002, 04:29 PM   #38
Tal Inbar
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Ahhhhh, the dreaded Herefurth catalog.....

I remember, in 2000 I was in Budapest, and a dealer asked $200 for an order of the October Revolution......AND he showed me another reference - the good book - sorry, the Mcdaniel bible - oops, you know....
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Old 05-19-2002, 09:10 PM   #39
Dave
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Ahhh.... Why can't we go back to the days of the original AVERS cataloge? Here are some price examples:

-Hero Star $450
-Hero of Socialist Labor Star $180
-Screwback Order of Lenin (type 1B in the cataloge) $200
-Order of Victory $2,000,000 (that's for Eugene)
-Order of Ushakov 1st $5000
-Order of Nakhimov 1st $2500
-Suvorov 1st (on hanger) $2500
-Kutuzov 1st (on hanger) $2000
-Khmelnitsky 1st $1500
-Nevsky (on hanger) $100
-Red Banner RSFSR $100
-Red Banner (Soviet) Number "7" $300
-1928 Model Red Banner of Labor $500
-Nakhimov Medal $50
-Marshal of the Soviet Union Star $8000
-Sebastopol or Odessa medals, your choice- $8 each
-And finally, the Belgrade medal... $5

This cataloge came out in 1993, but even at that time (when I bought the cataloge) the dealers on the market in Moscow weren't following those prices (unfortunately!)

Back when I first bought the AVERS cataloge, I collected German medals, and even at that time, I would run across sellers on the market that would be asking simply insane prices on what they had (2 to 3 times what they were asking in the US) When I tried to deal with them, guess what came out... You got it right! The Herefurth cataloge! Oh well....

--Dave
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Old 05-19-2002, 09:34 PM   #40
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Dave,

Avers prices were never real. It was written by dealers to be used as something to show to those, who wanted to sell the awards.
Alexei
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