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Old 01-26-2003, 02:58 PM   #1
charlet
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Patriotic War II,0025166,Deputy Comander,1st Rifle Battalion,878th Rifle Regiment

good morning gentlemen,
I'm very worried. I recently bought to a reputable dealer (I did ten buyings with very good items) and maybe it is the exception to the rule...
32I showed my OGPW 2 class with susp and doc to a new friend, Lapa (Marc), French like me, seen in Paris today and known thanks to this forum. I did not like the stuff:
medal correct, a bit dark;
but suspension fake: susp plate darkened with chemical patina;
connection ring not original and not soldered;
the hole in the suspension not centered;
the heavy dark patina on susp (measured: 32.5mm x 21.5 mm)

These are correct argumentation; the trust caused my me fiance and paranoia to lower...I'm more aware with campaign medals I buy alone (not to a great dealer).
well this is a torpedo in my moral and my finances.

I you can help me ; I hope the pics are good enough, THEY ARE NOT MINE, i'm not really equipped for that.

many thanks, sebastien

I've forgotten: the guy is honest, but the photo is a bit clearer: the stuff looks a bit darker in the reality (I don't think it could be conceived to fool)
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Old 01-26-2003, 04:53 PM   #2
sovvisor
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fake?

Hi
I don´t quite follow you. Should the suspension be a fake? I think it looks alright. The enamel on some of the arms seems to be replaced but otherwise I think it looks good. Atleast on the scans.
Best wishes
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Old 01-26-2003, 05:05 PM   #3
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well, I must recognize I'm not expert enough with this kind of susp. The photo flash lights the darkness of patina. It's deep enough, not really oily...The friend was pretty sure the sup is not correct; he's ok to ask to the forum other opinions.
I'm not sure to buy costly and risky pieces with my small pay of teacher...I'd better try small pieces at Alexei's...(the friend recommended him to me and i see the serioussness of this forum)

please any others infos?
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Old 01-26-2003, 09:12 PM   #4
Nota Bene
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Charlet,

I believe the Order is perfectly genuine in every respect, including the suspension and the link. I am not 200% sure about the enamel, just can't see very well from the scan, but I believe that at least most of it is genuine. The document is also genuine, without any alterations.

Best regards,

Alexei
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Old 01-27-2003, 02:24 AM   #5
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thanks Alexei for quick answer. My friend who is experimented was very worried by the darkness of the patina more accentued than on the photo (flashlight). The upper branch of the star has been restored as indicated by the seller.

My friend told me there never was any hole on suspension that were not centered. I saw only one case in the small Durov's book, "Russian and soviet military awards", for the OGWP1cl p.78.
It is important?

The ring is not soldered; it's a replacement for sure. It is an important factor for you (it's in silver and a bait larger than the fragile originals)?

I put off the screw on the susp: the screw, the plate, the susp behind the red cloth have dirt, irregular, all seems old. I think it's correct (a faker would have paint patina on the susp assembled, or he's very cautious)
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Old 01-27-2003, 05:33 PM   #6
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Charlet,

On the picture the patina doesn't look that weird, and the color is consistent with that on the silver star, except for the dark spots on the retaining plate. I have examined every detail of the suspension visible on the scan, including the small retaining nut, the screwpost, etc., and I think it's genuine despite the hole been off-center. I believe the star itself and the screwplate don't cause any doubts. As for the link I couldn't see that it was cut, but if it is not genuine (yes, it's a bit too thick) it could be an old replacement.

Alexei
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Old 01-27-2003, 05:43 PM   #7
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thanks Alexei, I breathe better. Nevertheless, Lapa gave me a good warning about scrutinity in a medal examination. Always being exigeant. The ring is not original, it's certainly a reparation.
I found 1-2 photos with hole off-centered (Durov, OGPW1; on mondvor.narod.ru).
I think this history of chemical patina is definitively not easy to determine. But with magnyfying glass (x30) I saw dust deeply put on the intersection of pieces, couldnot be faked; the patina is in tiny corners (a faker would have spent hours and hours...).

thanks again!
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Old 01-29-2003, 07:45 AM   #8
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Hi Sebastien and Alexei,

Since I am the responsible party for the uproar here, I guess I have to argument a little my opinion.

The link is clearly a piece of new (shiny) silver wire that has not even been soldered! It was bent to (somewhat poorly) imitate the twisting a genuine link acquires after years of wearing this type of order.

The suspension looks generally speaking "OK", but I did not like the "feel" of it. It resembles one of the reproduction ones, and the U-shaped attachment at the bottom is in my opinion a little too long. The suspension feels a little light. The hole is punched very off-center, and in a rather crude way.

These defects (in my opinion, of course) were hidden on the pictures: the ring was turned so that the cut does not appear, and the U-shaped attachement is bent, so it does not show on the picture.

Regarding the patina, on the order itself, it is probably OK, although I found it a touch too dark for my taste (sort of that grey area in-between certainty and really showing). When I talked about concern RE patina, it is about the screwplate, which feels like silver-plated aluminum alloy, then nicely aged.

My diagnostics (call me Dr, please ;) ) is: original star, replaced suspension and link. However, I am always open to hear dissenting opinions.

I know that I really shot poor Charlet's enthusiasm down, but to me, there really is "something not quite right" with this piece, that must be seen in person, as the pictures (obviously?!) do not show these details.

Marc
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Old 01-29-2003, 10:26 AM   #9
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Hi Marc!
you're not responsible for anywhat...And i must deal with advices and opinions! You gave me a very good lesson of precision. So for me there's no problem...but the order itself!! ;)
The problem of patina is quite a big one (at least for me ) coz' it can be sometimes weird. I'm waiting for a friend a his digital cam to question you all about small other orders I've got for a relatively long time, bought at a reliable source, uninteresting to fake, but with curious spots.
The problem is that even with a good dealer one must be very cautious, it must be a reflex. On some spots the patina is curious, on others it is melted like if it was natural (reflects black and yellow).
To enlarge the debate, why not definite precise factors about suspension...
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Old 01-29-2003, 06:09 PM   #10
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Marc,

There are always aspects that scans don't show. I was looking at some evidence of wear on that suspension - the tip of the screwpost is usually a good indicator, and it looked smooth and well polished from rubbing against clothing to me. Also usually fakes don't have such nice ribbon retaining plates and small nuts.

Well, thanks for the explanation, I trust your experience and accept your judgement.

Alexei
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