Copyright ? Did you say copyright ?

[Christophe]

Art,
Ed,

These last days, something sad happened in the Forum. I have noticed similar events in other forums... Maybe I am the only one to have noticed it, but I feel concerned about it.
So, please, take these few words as positive and constructive as they can be interpreted.
Just some ideas, maybe a difficult diplomatic mission...

Ed (Haynes) - because of copyright issues mentioned in the thread relating to the non-soviet HSUs - has removed some of his posts in the Forum.
It is his choice.
But, these posts were very valuable (in my mind) and I'm sad for the Forum that they disappeared. Meanwhile (and hopefully), they remain in an other Forum where Ed contributes.

The problem at the origin of Ed's decision is copyright.
As far as I have understood, Ed is concerned by the fact that what he posts (intensive researchs and pics) in the Forum could be not anymore under his property / ownership, but under the Forum's one.

I think there are here 3 different copyright issues :

* Copyright related to Art's Main Site.
It mainly concerns pictures. Art has always been OK for proper credit to be included in the scans. According to the Forum "Guidelines for Image Submission", you just have to mention him you want your credit associated to your pic.
My comment : Art's position is right, and it is just normal, as you are (or have been) the owner of the award and of the associated pic you have taken. But, it makes no sense to claim copyright for very current items; this is understandable for the rarest awards only.

* Copyright related to Art's actual Contest.
It also concerns pictures. The same rules seem to apply, if you read the "Guidelines for Image Submission".
My comment : That's only logical, as the pics will also be finally posted in Art's main site. For the moment, I don't see here any problem.

But, if you read the "Official Contest Rules", you can see that : "All image contest entries become the property of the website and are bound by this website's terms of use policy", and this drives you to a "Terms of Use Policy" page following the "Guidelines for Image Submission", which seems to say things slightly differently (possibility of your credit to be included in the scans is not mentioned).

* Copyright related to Art's Forum.
It concerns pictures (not only scans of medals) and texts (may they be short or long, as some researchs already published in the Forum). If you apply the "Terms of Use Policy", all is "copyrighted property" of Art (the "site owner").
My comment : that's why Ed sees here a problem, and prefers to remove some of his posts, what is a pity for the Forum and all of us.

Now, let's propose some ideas to solve this problem.

My general comment and question to Art :
To avoid all ambiguitees, would you agree with the fact that "All materials contained in the site (Main Site, Contest, or Forum) could be the copyrighted property of Arthur G.Bates III (the "site owner"), ... except if the author of a contribution (article or picture) expressly asks for his proper credit to be mentioned ?
This would not not seem illogical to me, specifically for research, study or specific publication with real interest as well as a rare picture, or a picture of a rare award (not the classical stuff !!).
For indicating copyright : easy for pictures (Art already does it, just have to ask.) For texts, a short and small credit / copyright mention at the end (as we already do it when we take some elements from a book or a website)

Art, do you agree with this ? What are your comments ?

Ed, what do you think ? In these conditions, would you be ready to post back some of your interesting posts, and continue to be an active Forum Member ?

Many thanks to both of you for your comments, that, I hope, will in all manners contribute to make this Forum better and better.

Pfffouuh !! Difficult diplomatic mission !!

Cheers.

Ch.

PS to all : please, be indulgent with this long message, but this topic seems to me like a potential little time bomb, and we have interest to deal with it as soon as possible.

[Tal Inbar]

(The opinion is MINE and has NOTHING to do with the fact that I am a moderator of the forum).

I think the copyright issue is simple - If a photograph of an order of Lenin from my collection is posted in the forum, I have the copyright on it. (As you can clearly see in the main site, each picture has the name of the person posted it).

BUT, if a research or information I contributed is published as an article, inside or outside the forum, I think it is only fair to mention Art's forurm with my name, because the information became public through the forum.

And to the issue of removing posts from the forum (by the person posted them) - I think (and it is NOT the official stand of the forum) that this is something I can not justify, unless the posts are out of date, fault etc.
To remove posts that has become part of the forum's hustory and database is- in me eyes - severe thing to do, and as far as I am concern - Art has the ownership on this entire forum.

Tal Inbar

[Christophe]

Hi Tal,

Many thanks for your comments.
My comments globally go in the same direction.

I agree with your first point. Art is already doing it.

About your point #2 (research or information published as an article, inside or outside the forum : mention of Art's Forum with the author's name) : I think this is a very good proposal, that seems also very fair to me. It is in fact quite comparable to what is done in the off-line press. And this policy is fair even if the author has been alone to write or make the research. It could be something like : "Credit (with the right symbol) : Mr.X - The ... Forum" or "Credit : Mr.X - The ... Forum". This should avoid authors concerns.

Point #3 : I fully share your view on removing posts. Look at the sadness of the "Internationalists Brigades medals" thread without Ed's contributions. It has now less sense. And it makes our own comments without accuracy.

Tal, as a Moderator, can you see with Art if it is possible to slightly adapt the terms of the "Law", so that our common considerations are taken into account, and prevent actual or future authors to post ?

Art, Ed,
Do you feel comfortable with this ?
if yes, Ed, could you post again your deleted posts ?

Others, your comments ?

A last word just to precise, if needed, that my comments are not targeted to create any legal or administrative concern to anyone, but just to clarify and highlight points that potentially seem able to weaken the Forum and its content. It has also to be seen as the opportunity to set an active countermeasure to potential sad decisions comparable to those we're talking about.

Art and others, I really hope you will take these comments and suggestions as a positive and constructive contribution, for the benefit of the Forum and all its Members.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Taz]

Christophe, Tal,
Thank you for Posting on a topic which has been worrying me since the problem arose a few days ago.
I dearly hope Art And Ed can sort this one out.
Please guys have a sensible chat about this together, for the sake of all the forum users.
I still do not see why this issue has come this far. Just my opinion, but why is it so difficult to give a few credits to the Forum and or the relevant authors when it is applicable?

Please Ed reconsider your stance on this issue and replace you posts.

Hoping for a solution, that pleases all parties,
Eddie.

[Christophe]

Eddie,

Thanks for your support on this subject.
As you, I hope a satisfying solution for both of them will be found, for the benefit of the Forum.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Art]

It's to bad this discussion has resulted in the disfiguring of threads as a means of protest. I thought I had made myself perfectly clear, but apparently this did not leave a very good taste in someones mouth. That person is no longer welcome here as a member.

I really don't want to get into this whole copyright thing again. But, for those that insist I make myself clear I will. I've had the website online since 1991. I've never had a copyright issue until now. There is an unspoken rule when you allow someone use of information on your website. That is, you are happy to offer something in return. The compensation is never monetary, believe me, I can attest to that, no it is something like a "thank you" somewhere, or some other token of appreciation. That is all I ask for.

I had no problem at all with Ed using the forum for whatever he wanted to do. I did not appreciate however his attitude that said it was fine to take from the forum and make nice articles for publication in a commercial journal, but it would take some "wrangling" and "favor-pulling" to allow the forum to be able to display the same article. Sorry, this is wrong. Whenever I use a source of information in anything I'm writing, I always ask for permission and then give them credit in the bibliography.

I don't know if I can make it any clearer than that. And yes, the above was explained to Ed.

Art

[Tal Inbar]

Just to make it clear - Ed Haynes was BANNED from the forum by Art.

[Christophe]

Well, I think my "diplomatic" mission has now reached its limits.

As said by Tal, Ed is effectively no more a Member of this Forum.
What to add ? Art's decision is clear, and Ed's position (as he wrote it to me) was in no way more conciliating.
Sadness, sadness...
But pragmatism has to prevail. Long live to the Forum, for the benefit of all Members !!

Ch.

[new world]

Originally Posted by Tal Inbar

Just to make it clear - Ed Haynes was BANNED from the forum by Art.

Tal and other moderators,

Would you please give us short explanation what exactly was Ed's wrong doing?

Just to avoid the same mistakes in the future...

Thank you,
William

[Art]

Ed decided to start deleting all of his posts making for real problems in readability of the threads. It can ruin an entire discussion because now a thread that answered a question might now be worthless.

Originally Posted by new world

Tal and other moderators,

Would you please give us short explanation what exactly was Ed's wrong doing?

Just to avoid the same mistakes in the future...

Thank you,
William