Makers marks, Numbers & Letters

[Nota Bene]

Guys,

I don't think we'll ever be able to correlate those numbers and initials (are they really initials?) with the actual names, but it's an interesting research and could prove an additional check point for determining fakes.

Alexei

[Christophe]

Maybe will we be able - at least - to make a correlation between the dates of making / issue of these "marked" orders, their Types and their SN, and why not, consequently get more details about the makers ?
But for this, we need a far more complete and exhaustive list !!! :(

But, let's take an example (not a scientific demonstration !! :rolleyes: ) :

For the mark "7", the corresponding dates are globally - even if sequences are not always respected - these ones (don't hesitate to correct them if I'm wrong...) :
7 - OGPW 1st Class, 1st type s/n 13197 - June / July 1943.
7 - OGPW 2nd Class s/n 56855 - March 1945.
7 - Khmelnitsky 3rd, T1, s/n 1608 - End of 1944 (before Nov. 44)
According to the data we have, the bandwith (dates and types) seems quite limited in the time : 06/43 - 03/45 ...

For the mark "5", if we exclude the OBH screwback SN 2947 (June / July 1936) with unspecified mint, the dates should be :
5 - Nevsky - T1V3 s/n 559 - Nov / Dec.1942
5 - Nevsky - T1V3 s/n 13528 - 1943 (before June ?).
Same remark.

To pursue on this track, we obviously need more data, but let's be patient... :)

Ch.

[Taz]

Originally Posted by Christophe

Eddie,

I don't see how we could exclude this option... :rolleyes:

Ch.

:D Was a bit of a silly remark,
What I actually meant is I don't think any list exists........apart from ours that is.

Eddie.

[Christophe]

Eddie,

I was not totally joking about contacting the mints... :cool: Do you think it could really be a waste of time ? :D

Ch.

[Taz]

Originally Posted by Christophe

Eddie,

I was not totally joking about contacting the mints... Do you think it could really be a waste of time ? :D

Ch.

Christophe,
No not at all, I thought you meant contacting the mints seriously. I took it that I was stating the obvious by saying that more or less there will be no other option :rolleyes:
Sorry a bit of a misunderstanding, must be the language :)
On a serious note though, maybe one of the guys has someone to contact at one or more of the mints.

Eddie.

[Christophe]

Eddie,

Great !! Many thanks for all your efforts. ;)

Ch.

[Nota Bene]

Christophe,

That's an interesting example, but I think there is a minor flaw in your logic. The problem is that most soviet awards were not awarded sequentially, especially the OGPWs. Still when we have more data the list will become more indicative.

Alexei

Originally Posted by Christophe

Maybe will we be able - at least - to make a correlation between the dates of making / issue of these "marked" orders, their Types and their SN, and why not, consequently get more details about the makers ?
But for this, we need a far more complete and exhaustive list !!! :(

But, let's take an example (not a scientific demonstration !! :rolleyes: ) :

For the mark "7", the corresponding dates are globally - even if sequences are not always respected - these ones (don't hesitate to correct them if I'm wrong...) :
7 - OGPW 1st Class, 1st type s/n 13197 - June / July 1943.
7 - OGPW 2nd Class s/n 56855 - March 1945.
7 - Khmelnitsky 3rd, T1, s/n 1608 - End of 1944 (before Nov. 44)
According to the data we have, the bandwith (dates and types) seems quite limited in the time : 06/43 - 03/45 ...

For the mark "5", if we exclude the OBH screwback SN 2947 (June / July 1936) with unspecified mint, the dates should be :
5 - Nevsky - T1V3 s/n 559 - Nov / Dec.1942
5 - Nevsky - T1V3 s/n 13528 - 1943 (before June ?).
Same remark.

To pursue on this track, we obviously need more data, but let's be patient... :)

Ch.

[Christophe]

Originally Posted by Nota Bene

The problem is that most soviet awards were not awarded sequentially, especially the OGPWs. Still when we have more data the list will become more indicative.
Alexei

I can only agree, Alexei.
I mentioned it :cool: and, even if there are sometimes sequential overlaps, all in all, there is still a trend, as Kutsenko's lists show it for the OGPWs.
In all cases, for the demonstration to be accurate, we need more data !!

Forum Members, please, continue to contribute !!

Ch.

[charlet]

Hi gentlemen, after having realized a serial number database based upon Kutsenko's great work, I can only say that the experience is very very interesting. But we do need by far moooore datas, more "samples" to establish, IF POSSIBLE, a sequence...

Alexei is right, Kutsenko demonstrated a trend over series of 100000x pieces (I mean a correlation between awarding date and s/n), but the awarding by groups disturbed the whole sequence. The best example is the database about order of glory, anarchic and impossible to establish.

BTW, I think the trends would be on a microscopic scale: if the maker mark belongs to one worker, how many serie could he realize in a day? did they switch to another coin or workshop? after how many time? was the mint mark realised by a workshop instead of a man? Within these two hypothesis, we would find certainly "groups", "packets" of little sequences.

But if a trend, even small, can be determinated, it's still worth trying it!

[Nota Bene]

Guys,

Just for the sake of argument - we are all assuming that those digits are master's marks, and all researchers seem to agree on that. Has anybody ever verified this? This could also be an acceptance mark.

Another one for the research:

Khmelnitsky 3rd, T2, s/n 5038 - small "8"

Alexei