Stolen Awards.

[Art]

Mike,

You story sounds like it could be the plot out of a movie..great job! Regarding Umurdinov, I wasn't suprised to hear that they wouldn't show his ceremony on TV..but at least he is still popular among the villagers. Who knows, in 50 years they might build a statue of him in their town square.

Art

[Mozzabloke]

I would like to think I would do the same as Henry. I can't imagine owning any order or group that would give me a better buzz than reuniting a family with a stolen order.

Mark

[Stephende]

First, I want to say that in this individual set of circumstances it sounds like the right thing to do was both obvious and honorably done.

However, In the new Russia I would not be surprised if bogus "family members" of deceased veterans appeared, tearfully reclaimed family treasures, and then just as quickly resold them to the highest bidder. A cautious approach is all I would advise.

[redstar_co]

Hmm.. Very good point.
Its very well expected too

[Bravo2Zero]

Stephende
Don't worry about Russian family "Tricks". My bad experience concerned a superb gallantry group to the British Special Forces that was sold to me in 1990 by a leading UK dealer.The story was that the recipient was selling them to buy a yacht.I had many contacts in the British SF through my own military service and the story checked out.When I put my collection up for auction in the UK in 1997 the recipients wife saw some pre sale publicity and put a restraining order on the sale.She said they had been stolen in 1988.They could provide no proof of the theft either from the military police,the civilian police or their insurance company.But I was forced to return them...I have no doubt he did sell them but did not tell his family...when the wife saw what the sale price was estimated to be she probably went ballistic.I lost a lot of money mostly in legal costs...fighting the battle from Australia was an enormous problem.I got about half the original price back from the dealer after many hassles.It was a good reason to no longer collect medals where the recipient may still be alive.
Mike

[Tal Inbar]

Very interesting story. There is a point that no one raised - $$$$$

You have to be reach enogh to return an order/title/group etc. which cost more than $1500, and not every collector can do that!

Tal

[new world]

Tal,

Actually, $$$$$$$$ was one of the main points of my original post.

If that would be an inexpensive award - no problem, we all can return them anytime.

But when you spend several grand on the award or a group - it makes the decision to return a lot tougher.


Another interesting aspect that Mike pointed to - is the responsibility of a dealer who sells stolen awards.

Should or should not the dealer give the buyer full - or any - refund if the group is determined to be stolen?

William

[Bravo2Zero]

William
Your points about the dollar values of the medals to be returned are spot on.My Waterloo medal cost a couple of hundred Australian dollars...I was happy to return it,especially because I knew it had GENUINELY been stolen.On the other hand I am equally sure my Special Forces gallantry group was sold by the recipient.But remember British awards have the recipients name around the rim.Literally a week after the wife put the caveat on the auction stopping the sale I was sent a copy of a British news paper with headlines screaming..."War heroes stolen medals to be auctioned!"Of course the rim naming confirms that the award was ORIGINALLY the recipients and the magistrate seemed un -interested in worrying about the proof of theft.LEGALLY I am sure I could have won had I wished to fly to the UK and put the case before a higher court...but that was throwing good money after bad.MORALLY I could never win...so back they went...he was a top soldier,believe me.I only wish the group had been of little value and I'd have sent them straight back.
Please don't blame the dealer.He had bought them from another reliable dealer in London and bear in mind there was nearly 10 years between the sale to me and the auction.How long can you expect a dealer to provide 100% return when he has been conned as well?We came to a mutually agreeable settlement and I was greatful for that.
Yes Tal you are right !The recipient sells them in 1988 for $000 and the wife sees them 10 years later with an estimated sale price of $00000.You can imagine the discussion around the family breakfast table!
Mike

[Henry Sakaida]

I wrote the article with absolutely no intention of putting a guilt trip on anyone! It was just my own personal experience. I returned it because of so many unusual omens that occured.
I am NOT looking to return any medals. This is the first one I returned, but it was under exceptional circumstances. It was not cheap, but typically priced for a Hero Star and booklet. The money came from my secret stash that my wife doesn't know about! You guys know what I am talking about! I bet most of you have one...you know, for those "I've got to get this" situations.
When I sent back the medal and booklet, I also sent the original certificate of authenticity by Paul McDaniels. There was a very very fine hairline split on one of the sides, and when I first received it, I was alarmed that it might be a fake. But Paul reassured me that it was genuine. He said that someone tested the medal to make certain that it was authentic. I have another Hero Star that has been slight shaved, like someone took a razor and scraped it to make certain that it was gold and not plated.
I do have another Hero Star belonging to an ethnic Mongolian who won it in the street fighting in Berlin. I made this medal "talk." The daughter informed me through my contact that after her father died, her older brother sold it for 2,000 rubles, and she is very very angry. Two years ago, city officials put up a bronze plaque at the entrance to their apartment to commemorat this hero. But she was scared to death less anyone asked to see her father's Hero Star! She thinks she can get arrested.
Because of my research, I was able to bring an American citizen and an ethnic Mongolian (Buryat) gal together and they will be getting married in August, in Ulan-Ude, the capital of Buryrat republic. I am making plans to go there for their wedding.
Will I return this Hero Star to the daughter of the Hero? The answer is NO because it was SOLD. When they get married and have a kid, I will give it to them as a gift and it will become a part of their family legacy. Long after I am dead and gone, when people ask the couple's kids how their mom and dad got together, they will have a most unusual story to tell!
My wife and kids have absolutely no interest in Soviet medals. I can never resell the Soviet medals that I have. So, for the time being, I'm the temporary custodian! I never think of myself as "owning" these medals.
My bag is to make these things "talk." I like to squeeze them until they give up their stories. I am actually after the stories and not the medal itself. Without the story, the medals are simply inanimate objectsand hold no interest to me. And I appreciate this web site which allows me the opportunity to share my findings with those interested.
Happy collecting! I enjoy hearing about the many experiences that you have all posted. I hope that you will write articles for Art's website!

HENRY

[Chris]

Quote: So, for the time being, I'm the temporary custodian! I never think of myself as "owning" these medals. Unquote

Excellent sentiment

Regards Chris