Soviet Awards to non-Soviet personnel.

[shotgun01]

i saw this online at DNW auction house. i would of liked it for my collection but it was a bit expensive (£2,000-2,400 + auction fees)

i thought it look like a quite interesting cross over piece & apparently -

One of just over 21 such awards to British personnel for the 1939-45 War, six of them to members of the Merchant Navy.

full details & a nice photo of the medals here -

Lot 1346, 18 September 2014 | Dix Noonan Webb

[Pobeda45]

A couple more photos related to Wing Commander Henry Neville Gynes Ramsbottom-Isherwood. (What a name!)

[Dave]

Originally Posted by shotgun01

i saw this online at DNW auction house. i would of liked it for my collection but it was a bit expensive (£2,000-2,400 + auction fees)

i thought it look like a quite interesting cross over piece & apparently -


full details & a nice photo of the medals here -

Lot 1346, 18 September 2014 | Dix Noonan Webb

The British government was very, very hesitant about allowing their subjects to accept these awards. In fact, when I was working on my book, I tried to track down information from the Royal Navy (and several other sources) and got the "Uhhh...yeah...we don't know anything about these awards...and don't think anyone ever received them..." reply (several times). Not the end of the world...I got the Ukazes for the awards, and that was good enough for me.

Here is the Ukaz (as reported in the paper) for the Red Star to Mummery.

Dave

Sorry for the small images, but here's the list of Soviet awards as per the Ukazes that I had.

And the rest of the sheet. Note I didn't have a Russian-English dictionary handy when I did this, so some of these are not the best translations of ranks and so on (in fact, they were just transliterated as I couldn't remember for the life of me what the British equivalent was of the rank...)

[CtahhR]

For "Sr. Unter-Officer" read Chief Petty Officer, "Sr. Deputy Captain" read Commander/First Officer, "Coker" read Stoker, "Botsman" read Boatswain, "Matros First State" read Leading Seaman, "Corporal Fleet" read "Able Seaman". As for Lord Beaverbrook his "rank" was "Lord Privy Seal".

[Dave]

Originally Posted by CtahhR

For "Sr. Unter-Officer" read Chief Petty Officer, "Sr. Deputy Captain" read Commander/First Officer, "Coker" read Stoker, "Botsman" read Boatswain, "Matros First State" read Leading Seaman, "Corporal Fleet" read "Able Seaman". As for Lord Beaverbrook his "rank" was "Lord Privy Seal".

Perfect! Thanks!

I think I'll leave Beaverbrook at plain old "Lord" though. It sounds better. :)

(I actually ate lunch with a Marquess when I was in Russia for the Arctic Convoy memorial dedication in September. I regaled him with all the stupid questions about being a Lord that I could possibly think of as a non-Anglophile American...) :chuckle

[CtahhR]

William Maxwell Aitken is Beaverbrook's full name. He was a big name here during the war - not always a good name but known by all.

I missed "Captian-Lt" which I believe is Lieutenant Commander.

The Royal Navy can have some peculiar ratings but that's just coming from its historical legacy. You can get some extremely obscure ratings and positions which really won't translate into other languages. You can have acting ratings, temporary ratings, temporary acting ratings and more - no ranks in the Navy though.

Boatswain and Lieutenant are not said as spelt by any means neither so it could be easy for Boatswain to be phonetically spelt "Botson" in Russian.

I won't comment on British Lords other than some may be closer than you realise. The Royal Navy (not British Navy) also have their very own "Lords Of The Admiralty".

[Dave]

Yes, I definitely agree regarding the British ranks and Soviet equivalents. It didn't help either that many of these were "former" ranks...by the time the Ukaz was signed, the person had often been promoted, left the service, or in some cases, demoted. It was very much the same with the American ranks on their Ukazes as well.

And as far as Lords...I haven't an issue with them. However, with other than what I read in my weekly UK injection (when I get my copy of The Economist, either on Friday or Saturday) I know little about how the whole "Lordship" thing works or the mechanics behind becoming a Lord, getting fired, etc. Said Lord was quite hospitable and I think got a good chuckle out of the questions coming from a former colonial. :D

[CtahhR]

I forgot to mention that full service records of Royal Navy personnel are available from the archive but it is not easy. Firstly you have to either be the actual service person or next-of-kin. If you are the person you have to send identifications with your request and then after a month or so will receive the information for free. If you are the next-of-kin you have to provide the person's death certificate and proof positive that you are the next of kin whilst including £35 (last time I looked).

Unfortunately if you are none of the above you officially have no chance (although unofficially you could get lucky) and the official service records are often very misleading or all encompassing. "In Service" or "Assigned to X" rather than any details (Specially is X is "European Theatre"). With one word performance reviews such as "Satisfactory".

I have a "next of kin request" service record that has less info on it that the original service record which has virtually no information on it other than a confirmation of service in comparison to the information offered in their personal diary.

Getting hold of the service records for these British recipients isn't an easy task. Another story again for the Merchants.

[Auke]

Originally Posted by CtahhR

I missed "Captian-Lt" which I believe is Lieutenant Commander.

One rank lower actually (Lieutenant). The Russian equivalent of Lieutenant Commander is kapitan 3-go ranga.

[CtahhR]

It could be just that.

Here are a pair from the 2nd "Indianhead" Infantry Division with Orders Of Glory III. Looks to be from a newsreel but maybe not.