The Soviet Military Awards Page Forum  
  • Serial Numbers Database 2.0
Enter Here

vBClassified Featured Listings
Echoes of War
Seeking following Soviet campaign medals for ..,
Echoes of War

Go Back   The Soviet Military Awards Page Forum > Soviet Awards Forums > Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics > Soviet Orders

Soviet Orders Physical Characteristics, History, Types/Variations, Identification, Collecting Stories, anything relevant to the collecting of authentic Soviet Orders (Ордена СССР) is here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-08-2003, 06:18 AM   #31
Lapa
Senior Member
 
Lapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: St Petersburg, Russia
Age: 62
Posts: 2,397
Somewhat Puzzled by what was shown

Hi Bob,

Nice pictures, no argument about that. I wish I had the same type of equipment you have, I sure would have a lot of fun.

I am a little surprized by some of the conclusions you drew from your pictures. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

I feel that most of the details you have shown are not irrefutable proofs of a genuine piece. I am a practicing enameler, and I also know about and have used various plating processes. To me, all the details displayed do not present much problem in duplicating on a 3rd class order. Only one thing, IF it is actually as you describe it, would be impossible to duplicate with a simple process: your conclusion for photos 4.1.and 4.2. However, under high magnification (I have a high-power stereo microscope) I find it impossible to see what you describe because the enamel is opaque. Also, some light residue can sometime be found between the enamel and the metal which is due to the use of a substance called "fondant" intended to help the enamel better stick to the metal (You can usually see it better on Red Stars where it tends to appear as a slight yellowish deposit between the enamel and the metal).

My point here is that, because the blue enamel used is of the opaque kind, light cannot go through it and show what is below it; this blue enamel is of the same kind as the white one used on the center medallion for instance. You can easily notice that you cannot see through any part of that enamel.

To ME (I insist on that point), pictures 4.1 and 4.2 show some shadowing that is due either to the lighting, or more likely to the edge of the enamel not being absolutely flat, but creeping up very slightly on the metal edge (a physical phenomenon - known as a menisk - identical to the behaviour of water in a glass, for instance). In the present case, the menisk is concave.

Regarding the guilding, the only suggestion I can have regarding genuineness would be the absence of guilding inside any small scratches due to wear, in a similar way to fake Orders of Glory II class. Short of that, there are several processes that can be used to guild any sort of piece - from quite simple to rather complex and requiring specific equipment - all of which could duplicate what you have shown, albeit more or less successfully.

In conclusion, I do not believe that the pictures shown here are reliable indicators of genuineness based on technical production consideration.

I welcome further technical criticism.

Marc
Lapa is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-08-2003, 06:25 AM   #32
otlichnik
Senior Member
 
otlichnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 547
Marc and Bob,

This is GREAT!!! Bob, thanks for posting these aewsome photos. I think the discussion on methods and detecting fakes is excellent and very very useful. PLEASE keep it up guys.

Shawn
otlichnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2003, 11:19 AM   #33
Bobsammer
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Hi Marc!
I have heard before, that: « Short of that, there are several processes that can be used to guild any sort of piece - from quite simple to rather complex and requiring specific equipment - all of which could duplicate what you have shown, albeit more or less successfully ».
But, I never saw that gold-plating was put with such accuracy, that it has not touched enamel. I.e. gold-plating left under enamel and it was not visible of traces amalgam on enamel even under increase 600Õ – 1200X. I know, that such technologies are not present.
Or the enamel will be spoiled or gold-plating will be with holes.
Could you, please, illustrate your arguments by pictures?
Yours faithfully,
Bob Sammer.
Bobsammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2003, 07:08 PM   #34
Lapa
Senior Member
 
Lapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: St Petersburg, Russia
Age: 62
Posts: 2,397
Hi Bob,

Unfortunately, I do not have the required photographic equipment for illustrations.

Regarding plating, the oldest method known to man is the use of mercury amalgam. The result is a very rich and dark gold plating that is quite resistant to wear.
Nowdays, electrolytic plating works pretty well with a rather simple equipment, but is not suited for a precise and accurate type of job.
For a few thousand $$$, you can purchase an electric plating machine that works wonders with details, which I suspect is a little brother (or sister, let's not be chauvinistic here) to the ones used by Monetniy Dvor.

The one important thing to know regarding mixing plating and GLASS enamels is that plating DOES NOT ADHERE to the enamel. Therefore, if you enamel a piece, then plate it, the plating will be deposited only on those parts where bare metal appears. Hence, a piece can be plated after enameling and all you can see is that the plating reaches perfectly the enamel limit without being able to tell which one was put on first (opaque enamel, of course).

Unless you can physically look through the enamel to see if the plating extends under the enamel (which is possible only with clear enamels, but not with opaque ones), it is impossible to tell is a piece was first plated then enameled, or first enameled then plated.

I believe that an illustration of that would be the Order of Glory II class. From my understanding (I sort of remember reading about that somewhere, a long time ago), the center medallion was first plated, then enameled. In this case, a genuine Order of Glory II class must show gold plating under the enamel, even if the plating has worn off the center (Alexei, please correct me if I am wrong). An extension of which could be the Medal for Veteran of the Armed Forced gold plated version (I use the conditional here as I do not have any manufacturing details about that medal). However, to me it would sound logical that the medal was first plated then enameled, and as such a genuine specimen should show gold plating under the enamel of the red star at the top (Alexei, help again!!! ;) ).

Personally, I am always weary of medals and orders where different classes or varieties are distinguished only by more or less areas being plated, since with some fairly readily available equipment, a little know-how and a bit of practice, a mediumly gifted would-be faker can easily make a living.

Not to scare anyone, of course... but I believe that too few people know and understand some of the basic processes involved in the manufacture of orders and medals.

Marc
Lapa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2003, 10:40 PM   #35
Bobsammer
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Hi Marc.
I can’t agree with you in all negative items. They are not arguments. Besides, you appeal to Orders of Glory II class, Red Stars. They don’t have anything common with this order. Completely different structure of silver, enamels and amalgams. It would be correct to compare it with Order for Service to the Motherland 2nd Class.
Besides, micro-PIXE method exists - quantitatively (Fe, Cu, Zn, Br, Ag, Sn, Au, Pb and Bi) determined. By this method fake can be determined in few minutes.
But, this is not a problem. Even gifted faker can’t work on molecular- crystal level. Provide the same or better pictures of order-fake and everything will be proved. Except of qualitative parameters, certainly.
And so … Not scientifically.
Yours faithfully,
Bob Sammer
Bobsammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2003, 05:22 PM   #36
Eugene
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NY,NY
Posts: 157
Even it sound informative, the information is not correct.
I'm sorry to bring it but many facts mentioned here are far from reality.
What Marc is saying is not true. They never do golplating prior to enameling the award. It's not logical and phisically just not possible. Do you have any idea what happens to goldplating when you place the enamel? The tempreture is over 800 C. It's always other way around. You can see the partial golplating under the enamel, only if there are scratches in the enamel and during goldplating some of that can get under the enamel.
Eugene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2003, 07:01 PM   #37
Lapa
Senior Member
 
Lapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: St Petersburg, Russia
Age: 62
Posts: 2,397
Bob and Eugene,

I did not mean to say as a truth that the orders were plated before being enameled. I said that TO ME, it could make sense if in some cases they were.

When I refered to the Red Star or the Order of Glory II class, I took these specific orders for ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES of something I was explaining. If anybody practices enameling, s/he will be more than familiar with "fondant". In my experience, the Order of the Red Star is the one on which you can usually see the remnants of the fondant very easily, hence its mention. The Order of Glory II class was mentioned because, as I mentioned, I seem to remember reading that these were first plated before being enameled. Once again this is only some recollection I have, but, should it be true, this order is then a good illustration of the process.

Now, there seems to be quite a bit of misconception regarding enamels and enameling. Unless enameling is done poorly (and I would not bet a single kopeck on that when it comes to Monetniy Dvor), the enamel actually melts and sticks to the metal, which is the reason you cannot simply remove it with your finger. It forms a microscopic bond with the metal. It is then impossible for any plating to "creep under". If someone finds plating UNDER the enamel, the ONLY WAY it got there was by plating the piece first.

Now, if anybody can explain and illustrate another way of doing so, I'll gladly pack up my 25+ years of experience in enameling and flatly apologize for misleading this forum.

Marc
Lapa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2003, 07:44 PM   #38
Eugene
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NY,NY
Posts: 157
Marc,
With 25+ experience, you should know better, what temperature it takes to place enamel.
Goldplating wouldn't survive.
All orders were enameled first, than goldplated.
Can you name or list any orders or medals, which were goldplated than enameled. I don't know any.
If you see goldplating under the enamel, it might be so called "cold" enamel, but people don't even have to have your experience to tell the difference.
Eugene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2003, 03:02 PM   #39
Lapa
Senior Member
 
Lapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: St Petersburg, Russia
Age: 62
Posts: 2,397
Eugene,

I slept on what you wrote, and I believe that you are making a mistake:

1. Most enamels melt (fuse would be a more proper term) between 700 and 900 degrees centigrade, depending on the color (some of you may be surprized to learn that different enamel colors melt at different temperatures).
2. Gold melts at 1064.4 degrees centigrade.
3. Silver melts at 961.9 degrees centigrade.

Plating:
1. The simplest way to plate something is to dip an object in a bath of molten gold, provided the object's fusion point is higher than that of gold. In my experience, it is not the most common technique used today.
2. The amalgam method: gold is dissolved into mercury (quick silver) to make a paste called amalgam. The amalgam is placed on the object to plate, which is then heated at about 250 degrees for many hours until the merury has evaporated. It is a dangerous technique as the fumes are extremely toxic. This technique results in deep shinny plating and was the plating technique used from the antiquity until the 18th century. Both this technique and the previous one are refered to as "hot plating"
3. Electro-plating, also known as "cold plating": appeared during the 19th century, after the discovery of electricity (of course...). In short, and without going into the nitty gritty of it, his technique binds the atoms of gold with the atoms of the object that is being plated. As such, not all substances can be plated, since it results from a chemical reaction at the atomic level. This is the technique most widely (if not almost exclusively) used today.

Given these details, it is easy to understand that no harm (other than heat patination that can easily be washed away by acid bathing) would happen to an object that has been plated before being enameled.

Following your logic, since silver has a much lower fusion point than gold, the heat needed to fuse the enamels would damage more readily the silver than its gold plating, and therefore make silver an unsuitable metal for enameling! Personally I think not.

You refered to hot and cold plating in your posts. I do agree that these techniques are different, and present different results. However, there is no way that a hot-plated metal item would see its plating melting away in an enameling oven.

Please feel free to share with us any technical details about these plating techniques you may have, as I am very curious to find out more on this topic, which, in my practical experience to date, has gone along the lline of what I have put forward so far.

Marc
Lapa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2003, 10:07 AM   #40
JensF.
Senior Member
 
JensF.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 121
Here is the Service to the Motherland:

Serial-No. 95362:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg soviet_vaterland3_1.jpg (31.7 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg soviet_vaterland3_2.jpg (36.6 KB, 0 views)
JensF. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Order "For Service To The Motherland In The Armed Forces Of The PMR". desantnik Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic Orders 10 02-11-2014 08:56 AM
Movement Regulations of the Armed Forces of the USSR Lapa History References 0 09-01-2004 07:18 PM


OD GREEN VIETNAM MILITARY TYPE II JUNGLE BOONIE HAT REPRODUCTION X-LARGE 7 3/4 picture

OD GREEN VIETNAM MILITARY TYPE II JUNGLE BOONIE HAT REPRODUCTION X-LARGE 7 3/4

$15.95



 NEW GENUINE MILITARY WATCH CAP BLACK 100% WOOL 2 PLY U.S.A MADE BEANIE picture

NEW GENUINE MILITARY WATCH CAP BLACK 100% WOOL 2 PLY U.S.A MADE BEANIE

$11.95



Polartec Micro Series Fleece Beanie Cap BLACK Made in USA No-Pill Military PT picture

Polartec Micro Series Fleece Beanie Cap BLACK Made in USA No-Pill Military PT

$17.95



 NEW GENUINE MILITARY OD GREEN JEEP WATCH CAP 100% WOOL 2 PLY U.S.A MADE BEANIE picture

NEW GENUINE MILITARY OD GREEN JEEP WATCH CAP 100% WOOL 2 PLY U.S.A MADE BEANIE

$11.95



NEW GENUINE MILITARY ISSUE 100% WOOL BROWN WATCH CAP COLD WEATHER HAT U.S.A MADE picture

NEW GENUINE MILITARY ISSUE 100% WOOL BROWN WATCH CAP COLD WEATHER HAT U.S.A MADE

$11.95



U.S MILITARY ARMY VIETNAM JUNGLE BOONIE HAT TYPE II ERDL CAMOUFLAGE LARGE 7 1/2 picture

U.S MILITARY ARMY VIETNAM JUNGLE BOONIE HAT TYPE II ERDL CAMOUFLAGE LARGE 7 1/2

$24.98



 NEW GENUINE MILITARY WATCH CAP BROWN 100% WOOL 2 PLY U.S.A MADE BEANIE picture

NEW GENUINE MILITARY WATCH CAP BROWN 100% WOOL 2 PLY U.S.A MADE BEANIE

$11.95



Polartec Black Military Micro Fleece Cap Hat picture

Polartec Black Military Micro Fleece Cap Hat

$9.00



Winter fleece hat balaclava 3 in 1, white. Fleece UltraSoft picture

Winter fleece hat balaclava 3 in 1, white. Fleece UltraSoft

$12.90



Military Slouch Hat Size 63 picture

Military Slouch Hat Size 63

$153.31




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2011 Arthur G. Bates III