If NOT State Security/KGB Generals Boards-- Then WHAT?

[DougD]

Gulag was NKVD then went over to MVD control if i am not mistaken...I wish Shawn were not so busy, he has th entire NKVD-KGB structure memorized.

DD

[January]

Hi; I'm new here. Actually, I've been around for about a month, but didn't actually sign up until a few days ago. Just reading a lot of old stuff.

Anyhow, here's a little clarification. The NKVD became the MVD when it was upgraded from a National Commisariat (NK) to a Ministry (M) in 1946, and continued as the MVD from that time on. Separately, the OGPU of the 20s and 30s became the NKGB in 1941, and was upgraded to Ministry to become the MGB in 1946. In 1953, Beria merged the MVD and MGB into a single entity; when Beria was executed later that year, this merger was undone, and the MGB downgraded to a Committee (K), becoming the KGB. In the late '70s sometime it became the KGB of the Soviet Union, effectively elevating it to the level of a ministry. Hope that helps.

[willie777]

So essetntially:

MVD:
NKVD upgraded to MVD. MVD merges with MGB. Merger Undone; MVD remains.

KGB:
NKGB upgraded to MGB. MGB merges with MVD. Merger Undone; MGB downgraded to KGB. KGB upgraded by becoming KGB of the Soviet Union.

[January]

That's the way I understand it! Also note that the forerunner to the NKGB was the OGPU, dating back to the early '20s.

I sometimes see dealers selling NKVD items who describe the NKVD as though it were the direct predecessor to the KGB. I think that the conflation of the two entities could simply be due to confusion (quite possible, especially with the entities merging for a few months in '53), although it could also obviously be a deliberate attempt to add the "KGB mystique" to their items.

[DougD]

OGPU 1924; before that there was the single year of GPU (JeffM has a great overcoat for a GPU General), and before that the Cheka. When the Germans captured NKVD guys in WWII they still often refered to them as GPU agents. DD

[January]

To further complicate and confuse matters, the NKVD was headquartered at the Lubyanka, a building which most people are familiar with for its later role as the headquarters of the KGB. (It currently houses the KGB's successor organisation, the FSB, and was pictured in a recent issue of TIME magazine in connection with the Litvinenko affair.)

[willie777]

OK, this is just a wild guess, but the boards may be movie props? I mean, Koskov in "The Living Daylights" wore a blueberry blue piped KGB general uniform with blueberry blue boards. The makers of the movie must have had some reference to base the uniform on, so the existence of such boards or those similiar to them is confirmed. If the uniform was assembled out of soviet surplus, which I doubt, the existence of such boards is also confirmed.
http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/s...html#post56746

[Rick Research]

The blueberry blue piped cap bears manufacturer's mark for 1955.

One set of pre-1960s silver star on gold braid boards are on a tunic from the 1943-47 period, though of course any such button ons were worn into the 1950s.

The two sets of apparently unused field boards are the pattern of 1958, in colors superceded in 1969.

All of which points, to me, to




Something Going On In The 1950s.



I have seen a MAGNIFICENT field grade officer's so called "Victory Parade" tunic posted over where I "live" online with

blueberry blue priping.


And that pretty much sums up, in its entirety, what seems to be "out there" in that color for that--or any other-- time period.

Given the constant changes in civil police (Militia) uniforms, it would not surprise me if these are similar transitional items for some obscure, shortlived branch of "State Security" in its broadest sense.

The brick red banded cap (never seen any uniform for the rest of whatever it looked like) leads me to wildly guess

something related to MVD/prisons.

How much we still simply do not KNOW!


And don't get me started on my OTHER 3 AM wake up woinderings... the VOKhR in its equally diverse and non-documented range of "services." :confused:

[DougD]

Rick,

"One set of pre-1960s silver star on gold braid boards are on a tunic from the 1943-47 period, though of course any such button ons were worn into the 1950s."

I think that these boards are MGB General; i have a M43 tunic with M1947 buttons on it for a one star MGB General in my inventory now. These boards are OK, not in dispute. NKVD-NKGB Generals wore these boards as well as the "wave" boards.

"I have seen a MAGNIFICENT field grade officer's so called "Victory Parade" tunic posted over where I "live" online with
blueberry blue priping."

These are around; while not common, I have sold a few. These seem to be Ok and from the 1945 era. However, while there are M1943 NKVD generals parade uniforms, there was NOT an M1945 NKVD 'Victory Parade' Generals uniform; they used army style.

Now, that being said, there are photos of at least one NKGB General at the VP in his M1943 uniform.....perhaps the "army" regulations for NKVD Generals ONLY applied to NKVD Troop Generals, and not NKGB-MGB. Perhaps they contiuned to wear the blue piping (would explain the tunic i have and one set of your boards) and when the new uniform changes were introduced in 1955 they wore some combination of the blue and crimson ( explains the generals caps and your boards). When the next uniform changes were made, even these generals were changed over to all 'army' red (would thus explain the red piped KGB generals we have seen). Anyway, that is my theory based on the past few years examples, research, etc.

Here is blue piped MGB General, 1947-1954. So, we know as late as 1954 or so there were still blue piped State Security Generals. However, we still have not seen a real blue piped KGB General from after this.

Again, I think that probably the red piping was for most NKVD generals in 1945, but some stayed with blue...these went on to MGB...but somewhere in mid 1950's even that blue was done away with in favor of army red.

DD