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The Researchers' Corner Research; the mysterious process which slowly sweeps away the passage of time to reveal the unique history within every award and unit.

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Old 10-19-2002, 12:57 PM   #21
Nota Bene
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I will try to double check it, but I believe not. When you leave the Guards unit you keep the badge, but you are not allowed to wear it, and you are no longer called Guards Colonel.

Alexei
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Old 10-21-2002, 02:03 AM   #22
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Actually, enlisted personnel left units all the time. I don't have all the stats, but based on my experience I would say those who stayed in one unit for the entire war were actually a minority!

A look through soldiers Red Army ID books will show this mobility.

The main reason for this is that the Army level was more important than the Division level for many things.

Medical services of hospital level (thus not simple first aid stations) were run at the Army level or higher. Given that there were more wounds suffered by Red Army personnel in WWII than there were Red Army personnel means most people were wounded during the war. There are stats in Krivosheyev's Grif Sekretnosti Sniat, which I don't have handy right now, showing total number of wounds and it equals either 1.5 or 2.5 times the number of soldiers. Now many soldiers were wounded more than once so many were also never wounded but statitically it was very common to be wounded. The key for this arguement is that after a soldier was wounded, sent to hospital, and rehabilitated they went to an Army manpower pool to be sent to whatever unit the Army needed filled not/not back to their original unit. Of course there were exceptions, maybe the hospital was close and the soldier just returned to their unit or maybe the Army decided to send them back to ther old unit. But, in general it was off to a new unit.

The same was true of many specialty training courses. Off to course at Army level, then back to a new unit. Also, when in breaks from fighting, units often had personel shuffled if they had too many untrained personnel or if they had too many of a certain specialty.

Finally, it was not uncommon for people to get seperated from their unit. As all major rear sevices were likewise Army level or higher, once rounded up the soldiers would be sent whereever needed.

The idea of belongng to a specific unit was much less firm than in the West or the Axis.

Shawn
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Old 10-21-2002, 02:36 AM   #23
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OK, I guess I was getting my timeframes mixed up. During wartime, people are constantly joining and leaving units. Hell, entire units that were decimated were dissolved, and their survivors absorbed into new formations!

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the post-Patriotic War years. Which renders my question moot, because I don't believe any units were designated Guards after the close the war, right?
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Old 10-21-2002, 02:56 AM   #24
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Actually, I think some were, but not for combat. You see not all Guards units were "awarded" the Guards designation for service and re-designated as Guards units.

The most obvious case are Guards Mortar Battalions, the MRL ("Katusha", etc.), units which were all formed as Guards units. Confusingly a Guards Mortar Battalion is MRL but a Mortar Battalion, a Mortar Regiment and a Guards Mortar Regiment are standard 120mm mortar units.

Also, there were other units but I am not 100% sure what they were - I think some airborne and maybe even some heavy tank units.

Thus, after the war, when units like the 76 Guards Airborne (VDV) Division was formed it was just made a Guards unit.

Now, on another note, I once heard a rumour that during the war Guards badges were only issued to people in a unit at the time when it was designated as Guards or to all personnel in a Guards unit when it was in some special parade. This seems likely to me due to wartime shortages but I have no prooof.

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Old 10-21-2002, 03:05 AM   #25
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So from what I'm hearing, the designation of "Guards" is a purely organizational distinction, not also a personal distinction. Which kind of sucks -- your bravery and sacrifice can contribute towards the distinction, but when you leave the unit, you lose the visible honor (unless you join another Guards unit). But I guess that to do otherwise would be to cross the line to a personal title.

Last edited by ibaya; 10-21-2002 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 10-21-2002, 03:17 AM   #26
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That is about it.

The general consensus - among scholars like Glantz and Reese - is that the Guards designation was introduced by Stalin as a way of marking quality units during the chaotic period at the beginning of the war. While it was a reward and was something that every unit was supposed to strive to it was more, at least at the beginning, a way to track which unis had performed as a unit should as opposed to breaking down, getting beat up, etc.

There was nothing about the individual to the concept.

Even the designation meant little to the unit. At time, but not at all periods of the war, Guards units were supposed to be slightly different with some extra stuff, more support units etc. However, this did not always happen and after 1942 the only real difference was that a Guard unit had done something well or had been in the right place at the right time. In 1941-1942, by contrast, a Guards unit was mos likely a much better unit than a non-Guards one.

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Old 11-02-2002, 05:07 AM   #27
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Dear Guys

I found something extremely interesting while looking at some old auction catalogues. Sothebys 17th Sep 1992 had a group to General Walton H “Bulldog” Walker. His group consisted of DSC and cluster, DSM and cluster, Silver star and 2 clusters, LOM, DFC and clusters,Bronze star and clusters, Air medal, ww1 medals ww2 medals. Korean war medals. French medals, Luxemborg orders, South Korean awards PLUS Soviet Union PW (class not stated but states silver gilt??) numbered 151207.

Gen Walker had the M41 light tank named after him. In the enormous write up on him it states the following.

“The conduct of his XX Ghost corp was to win him greater fame, before the close of hostilities his corps had liberated 31,000 square miles including 600 cities and towns. It had taken over half a million prisoners and killed and wounded in excess of 89,000 Nazi troops. Created a citizen of Honor of Metz, Thionville, Chatres, Verdun, St Symporium, and the city of Luxemborg his power drive across Europe did not stop until he shook hands with General Birokoff of the Red Army on the Enns river bridge in Austria (looks like the Soviets were not the only ones who could write good citations).

At the very end of the write up it includes a lot of documents etc and included in this is a “Soviet guards badge”….. How interesting.

There is a picture of the general and it looks like the very last ribbon he is wearing is the PW, but he is not wearing his guards badge.

I wonder is anyone can shed some light on this and I wonder how he managed to get a guards badge.

Kind regards

Munroe
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Old 11-30-2002, 11:48 AM   #28
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Maj Gen Terry Allen
I just saw this group. WOW. Note the official confirmation of the award and how the officer changed it to wear and also note the guards badge.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg allengroup.jpg (34.2 KB, 231 views)
File Type: jpg allenussr.jpg (9.6 KB, 200 views)
File Type: jpg allenussr4.jpg (11.0 KB, 213 views)
File Type: jpg allenussr3.jpg (26.9 KB, 204 views)

Last edited by CtahhR; 01-03-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 11-30-2002, 08:58 PM   #29
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MG Allen's award group

Hi,
This group is from MG Allen who was the CG of the 104th Infantry Division (Timberwolfs) from 1944-1945. The bottom patch on the left side of the photo is from this division and the top one is from the 1st I.D. where then-LT Allen served in during the First World War. The 104th Division linked up with the Soviet Army in early May of 1945 which I think is the reason for this award. I have the unit history for the 104th I.D. which has two photo's of a soldier being awarded the Order of Glory 3rd class and a photo of the document of this award. Wish I could get my hands on that Glory for my collection ,

Bryan
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Old 12-02-2002, 01:15 PM   #30
Matthias
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Various

Hey folks.


RE: Terry Allen --- My grandfather served in the 1st ID in WW2. Terry Allen CO'd the 1st ID for a fair bit (bit over a year) until he was removed from his command in one of the more controversial moves of that sort in the American forces during WW2. He was removed for "loving his division too much". I have purchased a few items from the bloke that sold his medals recently, and he is (IMO) a trustworthy individual (tho I do think his prices are high on occasion). I also collect WW1 & WW2 1st ID items, and had I had the money to buy Allen's medals, I probably would have. It was not only an important group for blokes like me that specialize in the unit, but he was such a famous general that they were bound to go fast. He served on the Mexican Border prior to WW1, in which he also served and was WIA twice. He retired in 1946. His only son was also in the 1st ID and was KIA in Vietnam, and he never got over his death (who would I guess) and it basically wasted him. Allen was also a West Point drop out. Note on his awards the British OBE, several French awards, the Russian ODM etc. Idon't know who got these medals, but if it was a collector and they come up for sale someday and I have the dough, MINE MINE MINE. ;)

Re: Soviet ODM to British Commonwealthers --- Not too long back I saw some Soviet ODM in a large RAF group, I think at Romney's Medals or something. But I do not, sadly, recall what they were.

Re: American Awards to Soviets: I was perusing my Gleim Silver Star index for WW2 Army/WD/Etc and noticed a fair number of Soviet awards. If anyone out there has the General Orders for Military Mission Moscow, that's where the citations for them are (mostly).

M
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