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Soviet Orders Physical Characteristics, History, Types/Variations, Identification, Collecting Stories, anything relevant to the collecting of authentic Soviet Orders (Ордена СССР) is here.

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Old 03-14-2002, 08:52 PM   #31
Art
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O.K., so we all now agree that there are no authentic specimens of the Red Banner above number 6, which means all awards showing 7, 8, or 9 are fakes? Eugene, is your source the same as Paul's? can you divulge this source of information?

Christian, I'm confused when Dr. Herfurth said that his number 8 was an original fake from the mint..You mean the mint made this fake for some purpose?

:confused:
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Old 03-14-2002, 09:22 PM   #32
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The problem is I don't know Paul's source.
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Old 03-15-2002, 01:51 AM   #33
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Herfurth believes, that the people at the mint a producing "new" soviet awards. They are also offered (common pieces, nothing rare) in the internet, as we know.

I will also check the 20 vs. 200 SU-Marshall-Stars issue with him again. Eugene's writing sounds credible & 100 % realistic and also Herfurth's aspect, that they got several for their uniforms makes some sense and (my special hypothesis) maybe for special gratification (Zhukov). Maybe at the printshop they made a zero too much.

Regards from Vienna
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Old 03-15-2002, 02:37 PM   #34
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Very funny

# 99 HA HA HA HA HA HA x 1000

Art, I laughed so hard that I almost cracked my ribs. Man that was funny.

For what it is worth, I have seen many sets of Order of the Red Banner with numbers up to "9" in Frankfurt, Germany. Between 1996-1998, fake medals/orders/badges became a familiar sights at the huge flea market in Frankfurt, Germany. The Red Banner sets looks brand new, terrible gold wash/plating, with a dark pumpkin orange colored enamel. Another dead give away to the fakes was that every other vendors had at least 2 or more sets to sell. I am sure that they have corrected the above flaws by now so becareful with the Red Banner.

Imagine seeing loads of pre-43 awards for sale by all the vendors....mind you that some were almost indistinguishable from the real one. For example, I spent 15 minutes looking at a pre-43 Alexander Nevsky. I would have purchased it, but fortunately for me the Polish vendor told me that the order was a "duplicate/fake" to include the award book that went along with it. He even showed me 3 additional Alexander Nevsky that he had hidden out of sight. The duplicates/fakes got so bad that I stopped purchasing WWII Soviet medals/orders/badges all together.

Art, thanks again for creating this forum. I'll be heading back to Germany soon and I'll keep you posted on the "duplicates/fakes" that I will see there.

v/r
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Old 03-15-2002, 06:14 PM   #35
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Hi Dat!

Glad you liked the 99th Red Banner ere's hoping I never see one for sale. Boy, they were faking #9's along time ago it seems. But by now, I'm sure your right and they have corrected the tell-tale orange enamel and patchy chemical patina.

:D

These are weights of orders I've collected over the past 2 years. I'll post one thread for each award. All were weighed with the screwback off. I use a Pocket-Tech digital scale by Gram-Precision. Some were weighed over a year later to check the accuracy of my results and all were 100% accurate.

Order Name/Class-----Serial Number------Weight in grams

Red Banner 7437 20.5
Red Banner 14000 24
Red Banner 51684 21.8

Here's an interesting piece from my collection. This was purchased a few years ago. I come across many Red Banners, but this one was special. Upon first glance you might think, "hmmm, a 2nd awarding of a Red Banner, not so unusual ". Take a look at the serial number. Notice the low number of "687". This struck me as odd. Either this piece was a fake, or it was a re-issue for a screwback Order of the Red Banner, 2nd award. I decided to keep the award and have it authenticated. I was pleased that it was a reissue for a #2 screwback. Here is the text from McDaniels authentication.

"After careful examination, Historical Research L.L.C. concludes that the Type 3, Variation 4, "Reissue", Order of the Red Banner, "second award" described above, serial number 687, is original in every respect. This piece is an official reissue for an original screwback Order of the Red Banner. This was commonly done to conform to the new order and medal regulations. The original serial number of the screwback piece was retained in this reissue"
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File Type: jpg 687.jpg (14.5 KB, 250 views)
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Last edited by CtahhR; 04-12-2012 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 08-06-2002, 11:26 AM   #36
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Gentlemen,
I knew that Red Banner #6 existed, but I had no idea that #7 existed as well, yet in the new Shishkov/Muzhalevsky book I see this scan:

They also have an incomplete list of 32 recipients of 6 Orders of the Red Banner, and an incomplete list of recipients of 7 Orders:

1) M.I. Burtsev;
2) V.F.Golubev;
3) S.D. Gorelov;
4) M.A. Enshin;
5) K.G. Kozhanov;
6) I.N. Kozhedub;
7) N.P. Petrov;
8) I.I. Pstygo.

Unfortunately they have no detailed photos of either #6 or #7. What do you think? Maybe we can have another contest for photos of those eight with all 7 awards clearly visible.

Alexei
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Last edited by CtahhR; 04-12-2012 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 08-06-2002, 12:21 PM   #37
Sergey Tamayev
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Amazing. I would love to see a photograph of it in wear.
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Old 08-06-2002, 01:16 PM   #38
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Alexei,

That is one beautiful medal bar,

Bryan
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Old 08-06-2002, 03:29 PM   #39
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Gentlemen,

Here's a photo of Vasily Golubev, wearing all seven of them:

Pstygo, Ivan Ivanovich. According to some information he is the only person to ever receive 8 Orders of the Red Banner, though the actual medal with # 8 on the front was never made. You can see at least 7 Red Banners on his uniform, maybe 8 if you look at it long enough :)
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File Type: jpg golubev.jpg (13.1 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg pstygo.jpg (4.9 KB, 85 views)

Last edited by CtahhR; 04-12-2012 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 08-16-2002, 02:10 PM   #40
Chris
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Hi Folks

I have a group that includes 2 Red Banners on a Bar. I am 100 percent sure of their back ground and have docs for all the medals.

However the 2nd Red banner in the awards book (407300) is not the same number on the awards bar which has a Red Banner of 4919 which is a numbered award.

Did he quite simply swap his 407300 banner for a Red banner with a (4919) 2nd award no on it?

regards Chris
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File Type: jpg lenin bar book.jpg (39.3 KB, 126 views)
File Type: jpg lenin bar front 3.jpg (44.7 KB, 131 views)
File Type: jpg lenin bar back 3.jpg (17.8 KB, 125 views)

Last edited by CtahhR; 04-12-2012 at 06:41 AM.
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