Fake CheKa/NKVD/KGB Documents - Page 4

Tal Inbar · 11-07-2002, 05:13 PM

"I am a thief, I am a layer, and if there are STUPID people on ebay, I get REACH!"

What a WONDERFULL approach....

Tal:mad: :mad: :mad:

Nota Bene · 11-07-2002, 07:13 PM

So basicaly what he/she says is - I know that they are fakes, but who can disprove it. A very convenient approach!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Alexei

otlichnik · 03-10-2003, 09:28 AM

FAKE SOVIET IDs

There have recently been many Soviet state security identification books (NKVD, NKGB, OGPU, MGB, SMERSH, etc) for sale on E and other sources. Unfortunately, the vast majority of these documents are fakes. The fakes are very good to the untrained eye, and in fact to the trained eye too. I myself had four in my collection and other experienced collectors also had several fakes.

The information I am posting here is a result of many months of investigation by myself and several accomplices. I first became aware of some extremely obvious concerns. There were at least two cases where photos of the same individual (in one case copies of the exact same photo) were used on several documents all with different names. In other cases, the photos on documents showed individuals wearing uniforms introduced years, or even decades, after the ID was purportedly issued.

As a result of these concerns a full investigation was conducted. We examined materials used, handwriting, types of pens used, stamps and serial numbers used, photographs, etc. We also looked somewhat into the production and distribution network for these documents. We have come to these conclusions after much careful work and are, unfortunately 100% certain of the results below. I am afraid that if you have bought any Soviet state security IDs in the past few years you may be disappointed. As I said, I was. Myself and two collectors I know are out over $1000 total for around a dozen fakes in our collection - mere curiosities now.

Below are details of the types of fakes known to date. There may be other types we are not yet aware of, however, this covers the vast majority of the current traffic. I am afraid that a document with all the signs (such as stamp and serial number) described below is absolutely fake.

General Notes:

- The IDs are all well aged. This has been done by creating stains on them, dipping them in various chemical solutions, and even roughing up the covers with an electric rotating tool equipped with brush. The aging is quite good and fooled me for a long time.

- In many, but not all, cases the photos used are not/not original period photos. They are modern reprints of period photos. This will be evident to a trained photographer/developer. They are thicker than period photos. They have a smooth glossy finish but often show signs of having been roughed up - you can often see that the entire photo surface is covered with fine faint scratches.

- In some, but not all, cases the quality of the stamps is very poor with little detail. While some covers are excellent, others appear cheap - especially those with flaky gold paint.

Each specific entry lists:
Type of ID
(name transliterated from Russian), date of ID if fixed (i.e. on cover).
- other notes including dates filled in, region, stamps used, serial numbers, etc.

OGPU of the Sovnarkom
(OGPU Sovet narodnikh komissarov)
- dated: 1922 or 1923.
- has stamp: “glav. Polit. Upravlenie Sovet narodnikh komissarov, s-s-s-r-“

District Militia CID
(okrugova militsiya ta rozshik).
- region: Nikolaev
- stamp: hard to make out “Nikolaev (??) okrugova raboche-krestyanskaya militsia)
- dated: 1928

Note: The next five types of fake documents all use the same large stamp, the stamp #1 of the central NKVD’s department for supply and documentation.

Ukrainian Militia, 1939
(raboche-krestyanskaya militsia NKVD USSR)
- stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1”

Nikolaev, Ukraine, NKVD, 1940
(NKVD USSR)
- stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1”

Ukraine, NKVD, 1941.
(NKVD USSR)
- stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1”, or none

NKVD Highway Troops
(glavnoe upravlenie shosseinikh dorog NKVD SSSR)
- stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1”
- dated: 1941

NKVD Convoy Troops
(glavnoe upravlenie konvoinikh voisk NKVD SSSR)
- stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1”
- dated: 1941

Lvov, Ukraine, NKVD, 1941
(NKVD USSR)
- stamp: big and faint “upravlenie RKM NKVD po Lvovskoi oblasti”

Krasnoyarsk NKVD
(UNKVD Krasnoyarskogo kraya).
- serial numbers all begin with printed Russian “RO” (looks like “PO”)
- stamp: “upravlenie NKVD po krasnoyarskomy krayu NKVD SSSR”
- date: 1943 or 1944 or others

NKVD Special Sections - OO
(Osobiy otdel NKVD SSSR).
- serial numbers all begin with printed “KF” (looks like “KÔ”)
- stamp: “upravlenie osobykh otdelov NKVD SSSR”
- dated: 1943 or 1948 or others

Far Eastern NKVD Border Guard Forces, 1939
(shtab KPV voisk NKVD DVO), Khabarovsk
-stamp: “shab krasnozn. pogranich. i vnutren.Voisk DVO NKVD”

Vyatsk Gulag, 1941
(NKVD SSSR. Upravlenie Vyatskogo ispravitelno-trudovogo lagerya)
- stamp: “Upravlenie Vyatskogo ispravitelno-trudovogo lagerya”

Primorskiy Krai, NKGB
(UNKGB Primorskogo kraya),
- serial numbers all begin with printed “ZN” (looks like “3H”)
- dated: 1943 or 1944 or others
- stamp: “narodniy komissariat gos. Bezopasnosti SSSR”

Ukrainian NKGB
(Narodniy Komissariat GB Ukrainskoy SSR).
- serial numbers all begin with printed “TS” (looks like “TC”)
- dated: 1947 or others

Sumsk Oblast, Ukraine, MGB
(MGB po Sumskoi oblasti).
- serial numbers all begin with printed “MK” (looks like “MK”)
- dated: 1951 or 1952 or others
- stamp: “Upravlenie MGB po Sumskoi obl. USSR”

Mogilev Oblast, Ukraine, MGB
(Upravlenie Ministerstva GB po Mogilevskoi oblasti).
- serial numbers all begin with printed “MS” (looks like “MC”)
- dated: 1952 or others
- stamp: “Upravlenie MGB po Mogilevskoi oblasti”

SMERSH
- serial numbers all begin with printed “BD” (looks like “ÁÄ”)
- dated: 1944 or others
- stamp: “uprav. kontrarazvedka NKO “smersh” karelskogo fronta”, although beware of others too

SMERSH Temporary Identification Paper
- the paper and coloured pencil signature are like known fake partisan docs,
- stamp: “glavnoe upravlenie kontrrazvedka NKO SSSR”

Also being faked are five types of distinguished employee badge award documents. With all five types the key feature is that the badge serial number has been left blank. I sadly know of no/no case where a document with the badge award number left blank is genuine. They are all fake.

Militia Honoured Employee Badge award document “gramota”
(pochetniy rabotnik RKM).
- dated: 1938 or others

NKVD Distinguished Employee Badge award document
(zasluzhenniy rabotnik NKVD).
-dated: 1941, 1942, 1944 or others

MVD Distinguished Employee Badge award document
(zasluzhenniy rabotnik MVD).
- dated: 1948, 1949, 1951, 1953 or others

KGB Honoured Employee Badge award document
(pochetniy sotrudnik gosbezopasnosti KGB SSSR).
- dated: 1980 or 1981 or others

KGB of the Council of Ministers Honoured Employee Badge award document
(pochetniy sotrudnik gosbezopasnosti KGB SSSR pri SM SSSR).
- dated: 1955 or 1971 or others

Shawn

sovvisor · 03-10-2003, 02:09 PM

Hi
First; If you can, please post the fakes and originals on your website so that the difference is shown.

Second; Please put an report to police about these document so that the bastard would rotten in jail and die!!!. I hate forgeries. The pollute the entire hobby. The best way to learn them of with such **** is the old russian NKVD style way. Put them up against a wall and put them in unmarked graves there they belong.
Just my personal feelings for these lowlifs.
Best wishes and thanks for your work. It´s invaluble..

otlichnik · 03-11-2003, 03:50 AM

Sovvisor,

First, I am afraid that I can't post all the images on my site right now. I am way past my bandwidth. However, we will post some here. We also have to be careful as obviously some dealers will be very angry wth us. I don't want to give any of them ammunition by posting images without permission. But we can start by posting the ones in our collections.

Also, I have tried, through the descriptions, to give everything you need to find a fake without a picture.

I agree with you about fakers. But there are a few sad things to keep in mind.

1) Not everyone is guilty. I know some honest people that sell these. If they fooled experienced collectors they also fooled many dealers. On the other hand, some dealers have been warned of this for a long time and continued to sell them. Even when they were shown the same photo with two names.

2) There is no chance of prosecution due to the jurisdictional problems. So many countries involved. Besides it is not a crime (in most places) to make fake antique ID. The crime is the misrepresentation during sale that they are genuine. Ebay obviously does not care about this as a huge percentage of stuff on there is fake.

3) Also, how do you prove it. If a dealer refuses to believe me what can we do?? I am 100% sure that my testimony would stand up over anyone who says otherwise in a courtroom. Many people have helped with this investigation. I myself have completed a course in Detecting Forged Handwriting (albeit 13 years ago). I have also been trained, more recently, by my government in detecting forged passports and international documents. However, we all now that "petty crimes" like this will never end up in court.

4) The best we can hope for is that everyone becomes educated now, the forgers business drops drastically, and honest dealers drop these suppliers like they have the plague. Frankly, I am not even trying to get my money back. My four fakes came from three different dealers.

Shawn

sovvisor · 03-11-2003, 03:58 AM

Ok I see the problems. I´m just glad that I´ve only been fooled with one document and I suspected it to be a fake due to lack of serialnumber for an honred MVD employee.
It´s time to watch out even more on these kind of objects too. Sadly but true.
Best wishes and thanks for your great effort.

Nota Bene · 03-11-2003, 08:13 PM

Gentlemen,

Just to show you how bad it really is here's a nice lot of NKVD/MGB/KGB ids. They are all fakes. I will have to return them to my supplier soon, so expect to see them on ebay soon :(

Alexei

Nota Bene · 03-11-2003, 08:15 PM

forgot the scan:

Nota Bene · 03-11-2003, 08:18 PM

Here's a genuine NKVD document from 1942:

Nota Bene · 03-11-2003, 08:20 PM

... inside pages:

11-07-2002, 05:13 PM	#31
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	EXCELLENT IDEA!!! "I am a thief, I am a layer, and if there are STUPID people on ebay, I get REACH!" What a WONDERFULL approach.... Tal:mad: :mad: :mad: __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

03-10-2003, 09:28 AM	#33
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Fake Soviet IDs - The Sad Truth FAKE SOVIET IDs There have recently been many Soviet state security identification books (NKVD, NKGB, OGPU, MGB, SMERSH, etc) for sale on E and other sources. Unfortunately, the vast majority of these documents are fakes. The fakes are very good to the untrained eye, and in fact to the trained eye too. I myself had four in my collection and other experienced collectors also had several fakes. The information I am posting here is a result of many months of investigation by myself and several accomplices. I first became aware of some extremely obvious concerns. There were at least two cases where photos of the same individual (in one case copies of the exact same photo) were used on several documents all with different names. In other cases, the photos on documents showed individuals wearing uniforms introduced years, or even decades, after the ID was purportedly issued. As a result of these concerns a full investigation was conducted. We examined materials used, handwriting, types of pens used, stamps and serial numbers used, photographs, etc. We also looked somewhat into the production and distribution network for these documents. We have come to these conclusions after much careful work and are, unfortunately 100% certain of the results below. I am afraid that if you have bought any Soviet state security IDs in the past few years you may be disappointed. As I said, I was. Myself and two collectors I know are out over $1000 total for around a dozen fakes in our collection - mere curiosities now. Below are details of the types of fakes known to date. There may be other types we are not yet aware of, however, this covers the vast majority of the current traffic. I am afraid that a document with all the signs (such as stamp and serial number) described below is absolutely fake. General Notes: - The IDs are all well aged. This has been done by creating stains on them, dipping them in various chemical solutions, and even roughing up the covers with an electric rotating tool equipped with brush. The aging is quite good and fooled me for a long time. - In many, but not all, cases the photos used are not/not original period photos. They are modern reprints of period photos. This will be evident to a trained photographer/developer. They are thicker than period photos. They have a smooth glossy finish but often show signs of having been roughed up - you can often see that the entire photo surface is covered with fine faint scratches. - In some, but not all, cases the quality of the stamps is very poor with little detail. While some covers are excellent, others appear cheap - especially those with flaky gold paint. Each specific entry lists: Type of ID (name transliterated from Russian), date of ID if fixed (i.e. on cover). - other notes including dates filled in, region, stamps used, serial numbers, etc. OGPU of the Sovnarkom (OGPU Sovet narodnikh komissarov) - dated: 1922 or 1923. - has stamp: “glav. Polit. Upravlenie Sovet narodnikh komissarov, s-s-s-r-“ District Militia CID (okrugova militsiya ta rozshik). - region: Nikolaev - stamp: hard to make out “Nikolaev (??) okrugova raboche-krestyanskaya militsia) - dated: 1928 Note: The next five types of fake documents all use the same large stamp, the stamp #1 of the central NKVD’s department for supply and documentation. Ukrainian Militia, 1939 (raboche-krestyanskaya militsia NKVD USSR) - stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1” Nikolaev, Ukraine, NKVD, 1940 (NKVD USSR) - stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1” Ukraine, NKVD, 1941. (NKVD USSR) - stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1”, or none NKVD Highway Troops (glavnoe upravlenie shosseinikh dorog NKVD SSSR) - stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1” - dated: 1941 NKVD Convoy Troops (glavnoe upravlenie konvoinikh voisk NKVD SSSR) - stamp: big “narodniy komissariat vnutrenikh del SSSR, dly khoziystvennikh i denezhnikh dokumentov, No1” - dated: 1941 Lvov, Ukraine, NKVD, 1941 (NKVD USSR) - stamp: big and faint “upravlenie RKM NKVD po Lvovskoi oblasti” Krasnoyarsk NKVD (UNKVD Krasnoyarskogo kraya). - serial numbers all begin with printed Russian “RO” (looks like “PO”) - stamp: “upravlenie NKVD po krasnoyarskomy krayu NKVD SSSR” - date: 1943 or 1944 or others NKVD Special Sections - OO (Osobiy otdel NKVD SSSR). - serial numbers all begin with printed “KF” (looks like “KÔ”) - stamp: “upravlenie osobykh otdelov NKVD SSSR” - dated: 1943 or 1948 or others Far Eastern NKVD Border Guard Forces, 1939 (shtab KPV voisk NKVD DVO), Khabarovsk -stamp: “shab krasnozn. pogranich. i vnutren.Voisk DVO NKVD” Vyatsk Gulag, 1941 (NKVD SSSR. Upravlenie Vyatskogo ispravitelno-trudovogo lagerya) - stamp: “Upravlenie Vyatskogo ispravitelno-trudovogo lagerya” Primorskiy Krai, NKGB (UNKGB Primorskogo kraya), - serial numbers all begin with printed “ZN” (looks like “3H”) - dated: 1943 or 1944 or others - stamp: “narodniy komissariat gos. Bezopasnosti SSSR” Ukrainian NKGB (Narodniy Komissariat GB Ukrainskoy SSR). - serial numbers all begin with printed “TS” (looks like “TC”) - dated: 1947 or others Sumsk Oblast, Ukraine, MGB (MGB po Sumskoi oblasti). - serial numbers all begin with printed “MK” (looks like “MK”) - dated: 1951 or 1952 or others - stamp: “Upravlenie MGB po Sumskoi obl. USSR” Mogilev Oblast, Ukraine, MGB (Upravlenie Ministerstva GB po Mogilevskoi oblasti). - serial numbers all begin with printed “MS” (looks like “MC”) - dated: 1952 or others - stamp: “Upravlenie MGB po Mogilevskoi oblasti” SMERSH - serial numbers all begin with printed “BD” (looks like “ÁÄ”) - dated: 1944 or others - stamp: “uprav. kontrarazvedka NKO “smersh” karelskogo fronta”, although beware of others too SMERSH Temporary Identification Paper - the paper and coloured pencil signature are like known fake partisan docs, - stamp: “glavnoe upravlenie kontrrazvedka NKO SSSR” Also being faked are five types of distinguished employee badge award documents. With all five types the key feature is that the badge serial number has been left blank. I sadly know of no/no case where a document with the badge award number left blank is genuine. They are all fake. Militia Honoured Employee Badge award document “gramota” (pochetniy rabotnik RKM). - dated: 1938 or others NKVD Distinguished Employee Badge award document (zasluzhenniy rabotnik NKVD). -dated: 1941, 1942, 1944 or others MVD Distinguished Employee Badge award document (zasluzhenniy rabotnik MVD). - dated: 1948, 1949, 1951, 1953 or others KGB Honoured Employee Badge award document (pochetniy sotrudnik gosbezopasnosti KGB SSSR). - dated: 1980 or 1981 or others KGB of the Council of Ministers Honoured Employee Badge award document (pochetniy sotrudnik gosbezopasnosti KGB SSSR pri SM SSSR). - dated: 1955 or 1971 or others Shawn

03-10-2003, 02:09 PM	#34
sovvisor Bearer of the Red Star Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Uppsala Swden Age: 49 Posts: 229	Hi Hi First; If you can, please post the fakes and originals on your website so that the difference is shown. Second; Please put an report to police about these document so that the bastard would rotten in jail and die!!!. I hate forgeries. The pollute the entire hobby. The best way to learn them of with such **** is the old russian NKVD style way. Put them up against a wall and put them in unmarked graves there they belong. Just my personal feelings for these lowlifs. Best wishes and thanks for your work. It´s invaluble.. __________________ sovvisor

03-11-2003, 03:58 AM	#36
sovvisor Bearer of the Red Star Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Uppsala Swden Age: 49 Posts: 229	Thanks Ok I see the problems. I´m just glad that I´ve only been fooled with one document and I suspected it to be a fake due to lack of serialnumber for an honred MVD employee. It´s time to watch out even more on these kind of objects too. Sadly but true. Best wishes and thanks for your great effort. __________________ sovvisor

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11-07-2002, 07:13 PM	#32
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	So basicaly what he/she says is - I know that they are fakes, but who can disprove it. A very convenient approach!! :mad: :mad: :mad: Alexei

03-11-2003, 03:50 AM	#35
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Sovvisor, First, I am afraid that I can't post all the images on my site right now. I am way past my bandwidth. However, we will post some here. We also have to be careful as obviously some dealers will be very angry wth us. I don't want to give any of them ammunition by posting images without permission. But we can start by posting the ones in our collections. Also, I have tried, through the descriptions, to give everything you need to find a fake without a picture. I agree with you about fakers. But there are a few sad things to keep in mind. 1) Not everyone is guilty. I know some honest people that sell these. If they fooled experienced collectors they also fooled many dealers. On the other hand, some dealers have been warned of this for a long time and continued to sell them. Even when they were shown the same photo with two names. 2) There is no chance of prosecution due to the jurisdictional problems. So many countries involved. Besides it is not a crime (in most places) to make fake antique ID. The crime is the misrepresentation during sale that they are genuine. Ebay obviously does not care about this as a huge percentage of stuff on there is fake. 3) Also, how do you prove it. If a dealer refuses to believe me what can we do?? I am 100% sure that my testimony would stand up over anyone who says otherwise in a courtroom. Many people have helped with this investigation. I myself have completed a course in Detecting Forged Handwriting (albeit 13 years ago). I have also been trained, more recently, by my government in detecting forged passports and international documents. However, we all now that "petty crimes" like this will never end up in court. 4) The best we can hope for is that everyone becomes educated now, the forgers business drops drastically, and honest dealers drop these suppliers like they have the plague. Frankly, I am not even trying to get my money back. My four fakes came from three different dealers. Shawn

03-11-2003, 08:13 PM	#37
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Gentlemen, Just to show you how bad it really is here's a nice lot of NKVD/MGB/KGB ids. They are all fakes. I will have to return them to my supplier soon, so expect to see them on ebay soon :( Alexei

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