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Soviet Orders Physical Characteristics, History, Types/Variations, Identification, Collecting Stories, anything relevant to the collecting of authentic Soviet Orders (Ордена СССР) is here.

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Old 02-16-2003, 04:16 PM   #11
charlet
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well the friend told me 40000 french francs, so 6000 euros. As I said, a Souvorov is a bit exotic for us. I'm stuned there were not american or german collectors on it to raise prices...but I'm not sure about the nationality of the new owner, and he had not interest to raise bids!
wow, 60000 euros...maybe one day for a legion of honnour of one of Napoleon 1er' generals???

The rarity of a souvorov 1st is not really known in France. The guy done a "bonne affaire" (a good deal) as we say here...
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Old 02-16-2003, 10:25 PM   #12
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That's interesting...

I had a off-line e-mail, I'll share the contents...

I saw a few Suvorov 1 for sell.
If it didn't belong to very famous person (like marshal of USSR), price would be around $25,000. I remember the time when it was possible to buy one under $10,000.
"Tractor" would cost in the range $12,000-15,000.

I thought that was interesting!

Rusty.
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:34 AM   #13
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Rusty...

I was under the impression that due to the rarity of "Tractor" Lenin, it would actually be around $25,000 US?

$12,000 - $15,000 US seems like an OK deal (* IF YOU CAN AFFORD THAT MUCH *)

:D

Eric
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Old 02-17-2003, 06:18 AM   #14
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Hi gentlemen, i confirm the bid at 6000 euros, it was well in Fontainebleau near Paris. I'd like to find a pic, but internet is by far too modern for french auctionnators! sigh...
My friend told me there was a great chance that the souvorov was"pre-empted", ie caught up by the government for the french musée des armées at the Invalides, Paris. Or maybe the piece could go back to Russia.
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Old 02-18-2003, 03:19 PM   #15
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Charlet,
It would be nice if you tell us a week before the auction, not after. Here are some members of the forum who would be very much interested in this order.
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Old 02-18-2003, 06:29 PM   #16
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sorry Eugene; it is real I don't scan all auctions happening in France, and I learnt it like you after the events...my posts were only here to bring an info answering to the source question: an estimation of price. Now, it doesn't bother me to advertise you in case of auction, but it's from "ear to ear": the soviet remains here pretty exotic and collectors are very few to diffuse the info. In the catalogue, only paper, not internet, the auctionnator only show french awards first...
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Old 02-18-2003, 08:44 PM   #17
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Eugene and Charlet,

If the French collectors market for Soviet Awards is in such rudimentary stage, then think about the possible risks involved with such auction purchase.

That Suvorov 1st may very well be a fake (I am not saying it was) :(. Think about it: the experts most likely know the real price tag on such rare award and would not allow it go for such low amount.

Just imagine shelling out 6K, coming home to the US and finding out it's indeed a fake - who will you return it to? To the auction house? It's quite possible, as even some of the museums in Russia have copies to replace real ones, and no one really noticed for a while...

On the other hand - this may very well be the deal of the century if it's real!
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Old 02-19-2003, 04:44 AM   #18
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Hi Chris, you're partially right, let me explain why: the so-called "experts" make me laugh. There 're now pretty regular russian and soviet auction at Drouot, Paris, approx one per year and maybe two. The expert doesn't weight next to a few french collector I know and of course collectors discussing here. The official parisian expert can be fooled with one or two known pieces (ex a nakhimov with thickness of 3mm). French expert are better with icons, imperial russia (we received a lot of white russian and their memorablilia is better considered here). So I'm very cautious with theses auctions: the three quarters are devoted to icons, the remains to soviet, and the 3/4 of buyers have gone! (pretty easy to buy then...). But prices are irrealistics (why do you believe I buy at Igor and Aleksei??!), there're few nice pieces (friend of mine sell flags at 500, 750 euros!! of the 50' and 70', busts at 150...). Not evident (would you bid on a badge of honnour type 6 starting at 45 euros?).
So I prefer buying from hand to hand, following the tradition or discuss with fellow like in this forum.
For Koenig's Souvorov, this is THE great exception: the auctionnators are prestigious aud cautious (right?), and almost, they took the piece directly from the familly, so 100% garantee. Koenig was pretty known and prestigious.
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Old 02-19-2003, 04:54 AM   #19
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I followed this thread form the begining.
I find it hard to brlieve - to say the least - that a reputable auction house will allow the selling of this kind of order for such a low price.

I find it even more strange, that they didn't do thier homework - in that they never figured out the value of the award, and they didn't authenticated it.

If it came from the family, it was easy to get the document as well, or at least to scan/picture it.

I will belive the selling of high end awards in low prices in the very early 1990's, but not now.

Could you show the catalog of the auction, or get EXACT quote of the Suvorov from it?

Tal
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Old 02-19-2003, 06:31 AM   #20
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I'm sorry to have brought such a mess! Tal, I do my best to find data about this, but the catalogue must have been done only on paper, very lucky if itself has a photo...I'll try to get the name of the expert auctioneer, first by my friend. But I believe these infos reliable. French market is by far different, not inferior; we admit for example German houses are more expert about soviet union.
For the reputation of Koenig, see this:

Grand Cross of the legion of honour
Compagnon de la Libération (1038 ones! the most prestigious of the country)

numerous military french medals (...)
• Médaille Militaire
• Croix de Guerre 14/18 (2 citations)
• Croix de Guerre 39/45 (4 citations)
• Médaille de la Résistance avec rosette

• Distinguished Service Order (GB) !!
• Compagnon of the Order of the Bath (UK) !!
• Commandeur of the Legion of Merit (USA) !!
• Gold Medal of the Congress (USA) !!
• Souvorov order 1st class (USSR) !!

• Grand Cross Magistrale of the order of Malta
• Grand Officer of the order of Léopold (Belgium)
• Grand Cross of the crown (Belgium)
• Grand Cross of the Order of Orange Nassau (Nederlands)
• Grand Cross of the royal order of Danebrog (Danemark)
• Grand Cross of Saint Olaf (Norvège)
• Virtuti Militari (Poland)
• Order of white lion for victory (CSSR)
• Grand Cross of Georges 1er (Greece)
• Grand Cross of Oak crown (Luxemburg)
• Grand Cross of Saint Charles (Monaco)
• Grand Cross of the white elephant (Thaïland)

I didn't put other grand cross belonging to the former colonial empire.
As you can see I don't think the credibility of the auctioneer can be doubted. About authentication? from the family of a marshal? and we had not a lot of marshals...Would you ask to authenticate the victory order of the Eisenhower library? (american director will kick you like his french colleague!). I was told there were the documents with the pieces. I think they certainly sold many others souvenirs like papers.
Your remark about price estimation not done is interesting, Tal. As a (poor) explanation, I remark our Suvorov is lost amongst very numerous and prestigious orders...

I won't tell any more due to lack of infos, and I think even fellow collectors can miss a rare piece... but please don't believe I get fun to get into this forum for spreading fools infos!

I found the info and the explanation.
The auction was held on sunday feb 9 and organized by the étude Orsenat.

The report says the estimations exploded, multiplied by 5 or ten. Notably there were Russians, English, Americans and Belgians. The themes: militaria, books.
The order of Liberation, estimated 250 euros!! (Tal you're partly right about the estimation...they're mad) sold at 4300, it is retained by the State (normal it is high french history, Bir Hakeim...we had not a lot of great victories in this war....).

The suvorov has been retained by the State, so it can explain perhaps why the bids didn't grow further. The price is well 6000 euros. It was estimated between 300-400 euros (!!!!). Its estimations was pulverised. It has been sold with the nomination letter to the rank of colonel general (corps d'armee) in date of april 8, 1946, and with the order booklet and its statutes.(follows a curious description of its ribbon...soviet is REALLY exotic for them).
They sold Koenig's bamboo stick (a bit like Montgomery's one), start 550 euros, with 42 decorations and photos: final 3100 euros.
5500 euros for a letter from general de Gaulle for the Koenig's widow, hand-signed by De Gaulle president de la République.
The DSO (UK) and box sold at 5800 euros, the Legion of Merit Commander, USA, in gold, bronze, enamel and ribbon, with box and citation of President Roosevelt: 4 800 euros.
A 1944 photo album from the general staff of koenig: 2600 euros.

And compare: 8 100 euros for a desk in rose wood style Louis XV, XIXth ...


That's all folks! more seriously you can taste of this style of auction; they're very numerous and highly costly pieces.

hope having been helpful
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