Prices/Value Discussion. - Page 42

HuliganRS · 09-07-2005, 10:14 AM

Looks like the prices are finally leveling off. It would seem that our NY/NJ pace setting dealer found the sweet spot where even our Russian counterparts are not jumping all over our cheaper prices!

The bottom line:

Nakhimov 2 - $28,000
Suvorov 2 - $14,800
Suvorov 3 - Not Available but should be in the $4,600 - $5,000 range
Kutuzov 2 - $7,950
Kutuzov 3 - $7,700
Khmelnitsky 2 - $11,995
Khmelnitsky 3 - 3,800
Nevsky (screwback) - $1,090 (T3) to $1,950
Red Banner of Labor - $3,900 (T2 - screwback)
Badge of Honor - $1,475 - $1,595 (T2 - screwback)

Rusty.

new world · 09-07-2005, 10:07 PM

Rusty,

Believe it or not, but this dealer recently REDUCED prices on some of above mentioned awards.

For example, Suvorov 2nd was listed for almost $16,000 and went down to $14,800.

William

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuliganRS

Looks like the prices are finally leveling off. It would seem that our NY/NJ pace setting dealer found the sweet spot where even our Russian counterparts are not jumping all over our cheaper prices!

The bottom line:

Nakhimov 2 - $28,000
Suvorov 2 - $14,800
Suvorov 3 - Not Available but should be in the $4,600 - $5,000 range
Kutuzov 2 - $7,950
Kutuzov 3 - $7,700
Khmelnitsky 2 - $11,995
Khmelnitsky 3 - 3,800
Nevsky (screwback) - $1,090 (T3) to $1,950
Red Banner of Labor - $3,900 (T2 - screwback)
Badge of Honor - $1,475 - $1,595 (T2 - screwback)

Rusty.

Dave · 09-09-2005, 09:35 PM

Over the past month or so I've had the itch to pick up a nice WW2 German eastern front group (not sure where my money is going to come from for it, but I'm playing that one by ear!)

Anyway, I've started watching the prices for legit German TR awards and have been surprised. When I first started collecting Soviet awards in 1992, I had been collecting TR before that and found that Soviet awards were a much better deal financially. After watching now several dozens of high-end German awards get sold, I wonder if now the reverse is not the case... In the past two weeks I've seen two Knights Crosses sell - one for $4500 the other for $5000. Having one of these would be the "gem" of most mortal's German collections, yet ironically they sell for 2/3 of the price of a Kutuzov 3rd! Interestingly, I've watched a lot of decent German awards (and documented award groups) sell in the $1000 and less category (with a few exceptions) yet what can you buy now Soviet-wise in that category? Not much!

Anyway, just a small thing I noted. Funny how things come "full circle" sometimes...

Dave

new world · 09-09-2005, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Over the past month or so I've had the itch to pick up a nice WW2 German eastern front group (not sure where my money is going to come from for it, but I'm playing that one by ear!)

Anyway, I've started watching the prices for legit German TR awards and have been surprised. When I first started collecting Soviet awards in 1992, I had been collecting TR before that and found that Soviet awards were a much better deal financially. After watching now several dozens of high-end German awards get sold, I wonder if now the reverse is not the case... In the past two weeks I've seen two Knights Crosses sell - one for $4500 the other for $5000. Having one of these would be the "gem" of most mortal's German collections, yet ironically they sell for 2/3 of the price of a Kutuzov 3rd! Interestingly, I've watched a lot of decent German awards (and documented award groups) sell in the $1000 and less category (with a few exceptions) yet what can you buy now Soviet-wise in that category? Not much!

Anyway, just a small thing I noted. Funny how things come "full circle" sometimes...

Dave

Dave,

I support everything you just said, with exception of RK examples. I believe both of them were made post-war and therefore were sold at discount. If those RKs were to be WWII-period pieces, they would cost about twice the price. If they were to come with provenance - the price would be well over $10,000.

Soviet awards - Kutuzov 3rd in your example - were made suring limited period and mostly during WWII, while some of the RKs were made even in the 1970s (there's this story about some English lads acquiring original dies ...).

Just my two cents.

William

salyan · 09-18-2005, 05:12 AM

Have two agree William...
Well well-documented RKs (provenance) as single items still go for no less than 7-8,000...usually around 10,000 - as opposed to two years ago when you could get one from the most reputable dealer overseas (again, with provenance) for about 4,000.

Also - I have seen German crosses go from 1,000 to (now)..1,500 to 2,000.
Another good example is an original 1813 2nd class cross .... used to go for about 1,000....now, double that.

For TR period, the only exceptions I have seen are put-together groups or "post-war knock-offs" made by the original manufacturer...particularly in the Knight's cross category.

What i also find fascinating is the quick rise in U.S. medals (from WW2 and earlier). Those prices have seen some marked inflation, but I can't share to what degree...
Dan

Dave · 11-27-2005, 10:53 PM

I have a penchant for keeping old catalogs. Tonight, I was looking through some from a well-known Soviet awards dealer. I have one of his earlier catalogs (September 1996) and about 20 copies later through what I believe to be his last published catalog (November 2002.) I thought it would be interesting to take a little trip “through memory lane” to look at the prices that were “retail” (collector-to-collector was about 10% cheaper, normally) for the day.

I’ve taken a selection of military awards from each of three catalogs: September 1996, April 1999 and November 2002. I tried my best to make “even” comparisons to awards in the same condition, history (all are unresearched unless otherwise noted) and the like.

September 1996
Red Star (post WW2) $17
Red Star (7-digit s/n) $18
Red Star (6 digit s/n) $20
OGPW 2 (6 digit s/n) $25 ($35 w/document)
OGPW 2 (suspended) $260
OGPW 1 (WW2) $240
OGPW 1 (suspended) $350
Red Banner (post war) $30
Red Banner (WW2) $35
Red Banner (screwback) $125
Glory 3rd $25
Glory 2nd $120
Homeland 3rd $250
Nevsky $385
Khmelnitsky 3rd $850
Kutuzov 3rd $1220
Kutuzov 2nd $1640
Kutuzov 1st $8900
Lenin (“on suspension” WW2-issue) $750
Lenin (“3rd type” screwback) $995
Ushakov Medal $385
Nakhimov Medal $360

Interesting to note is the lack of single HSU Gold Stars (not even any groups!) and other “high end” awards save for the single Kutuzov 1st.

April 1999
Gold Star HSU $1950
Red Star (post WW2) $14
Red Star (7-digit s/n) $15
Red Star (6 digit s/n) $16
OGPW 2 (6 digit s/n) $24
OGPW 2 (suspended) none
OGPW 1 (WW2) $190
OGPW 1 (suspended) none
Red Banner (post war) $30
Red Banner (WW2) $35
Red Banner (screwback) $125
Glory 3rd $20
Glory 2nd $120
Glory 1st $1900
Homeland 3rd $120
Nevsky $330
Suvorov 2nd $3100
Khmelnitsky 3rd $640
Khmelnitsky 2nd $1700
Khmelnitsky 1st $6950
Kutuzov 3rd $1050
Kutuzov 2nd $1350
Kutuzov 1st $6900
Lenin (WW2 issue) $520
Lenin (“3rd type” screwback) $2700 (T4 screwbacks were $1050 on average)
Ushakov Medal $390
Nakhimov Medal $330

Almost three years later, and surprisingly the prices had actually gone DOWN on nearly all of the awards! Interestingly, the number of HSU/HSL groups was enormous - enough to fill nearly the first eight pages of the catalog!

November 2002
Gold Star HSU $1740
Red Star (post WW2) $15
Red Star (7-digit s/n) $17
Red Star (6 digit s/n) $19
OGPW 2 (6 digit s/n) $34
OGPW 2 (suspended) $250
OGPW 1 (WW2) $170
OGPW 1 (suspended) $380
Red Banner (post war) $45
Red Banner (WW2) $55
Red Banner (screwback) $95
Glory 3rd $20
Glory 2nd $150
Glory 1st $1575
Homeland 3rd none
Nevsky $380
Suvorov 3rd $925
Suvorov 2nd $2550
Khmelnitsky 3rd $695
Khmelnitsky 2nd $1780
Khmelnitsky 1st $7950
Kutuzov 3rd $1095 (with research)
Kutuzov 2nd $1425
Kutuzov 1st $6950 (with research)
Lenin (WW2 issue) $595
Lenin (“3rd type” screwback) $1995 (T4 screwbacks were $1150 on average)
Ushakov Medal none
Nakhimov Medal none

Thus, over a span of six years of Soviet awards values, it’s interesting to see how the prices varied, and that since November 2002, how much prices have skyrocketed!

Here’s a summary of our prices from the three years, plus the prices asked currently from the same dealer. They are listed in order from September 1996 through November 2005:

Gold Star HSU (none) (1950) (1740) (4800 - though with one document)
Red Star (post WW2) (17) (14) (15) (32)
Red Star (7-digit s/n) (18) (15) (17) (37)
Red Star (6 digit s/n) (20) (16) (19) (75)
OGPW 2 (6 digit s/n) (25) (24) (34) (85)
OGPW 2 (suspended) (260) (none) (250) (none)
OGPW 1 (WW2) (240) (190) (170) (325)
OGPW 1 (suspended) (350) (none) (380) (none)
Red Banner (post war) (30) (30) (45) (130)
Red Banner (WW2) (35) (35) (55) (160)
Red Banner (screwback) (125) (125) (95) (575)
Glory 3rd (25) (20) (20) (45)
Glory 2nd (120) (120) (150) (345)
Glory 1st (none) (1900) (1575) (none)
Homeland 3rd (250) (120) (none) (295)
Nevsky (385) (330) (380) (1340)
Suvorov 2nd (none) (3100) (2550) (14800)
Khmelnitsky 3rd (850) (640) (695) (3800)
Khmelnitsky 2nd (none) (1700) (1780) (11995)
Khmelnitsky 1st (none) (6950) (7950) (none)
Kutuzov 3rd (1220) (1050) (1095 w/research) (7700)
Kutuzov 2nd (1640) (1350) (1425) (7950)
Kutuzov 1st (8900) (6900) (6950 w/research) (none)
Lenin (WW2 issue) (750) (520) (595) (none)
Lenin (“3rd type” screwback) (995) (2700) (1995) (none)
Ushakov Medal (385) (390) (none) (none)
Nakhimov Medal (360) (330) (none) (1050)

I think the old adage of “buy nice stuff, the value will go up” can be clearly seen in this case!

Well, thanks for taking the trip down memory lane with me. I hope you’ve had as much fun reading this as I had making it!

Dave

HuliganRS · 11-28-2005, 08:39 AM

Ahh, the good old age...

Rusty.

medalklector · 11-28-2005, 10:28 AM

If you had a few 2nd Class Suvorov's you'd be laughing. And they say that you can't go wrong with property

Nack · 11-28-2005, 10:35 AM

Interesting that, comparatively, the Order of Glory 3rd Class has hardly appreciated at all. Earned through bravery, and a neat-looking award too. Strange.

redmedals · 11-28-2005, 12:06 PM

Indeed the good old days. I see there are no prices quoted for late 1980's and early 1990's when Soviet medals of any kind were nearly impossible to find and very very expensive the high orders and titles impossible to find. Then the Soviet Union disintegrated. In my opinion the prices you refer to reflect the big exodus of Soviet medals from the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics in the mid to late 1990's back then it was a buyer's market. Supply is now drying up and harder to get at the source so it is a seller's market and this is reflected in the rising prices over the past two years. I would feel safe in saying the age old simple law of supply and demand is at work here.
Ron

09-07-2005, 10:14 AM	#411
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	Looks like the prices are finally leveling off. It would seem that our NY/NJ pace setting dealer found the sweet spot where even our Russian counterparts are not jumping all over our cheaper prices! The bottom line: Nakhimov 2 - $28,000 Suvorov 2 - $14,800 Suvorov 3 - Not Available but should be in the $4,600 - $5,000 range Kutuzov 2 - $7,950 Kutuzov 3 - $7,700 Khmelnitsky 2 - $11,995 Khmelnitsky 3 - 3,800 Nevsky (screwback) - $1,090 (T3) to $1,950 Red Banner of Labor - $3,900 (T2 - screwback) Badge of Honor - $1,475 - $1,595 (T2 - screwback) Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

09-18-2005, 05:12 AM	#415
salyan Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida, USA Age: 58 Posts: 40	Have two agree William... Well well-documented RKs (provenance) as single items still go for no less than 7-8,000...usually around 10,000 - as opposed to two years ago when you could get one from the most reputable dealer overseas (again, with provenance) for about 4,000. Also - I have seen German crosses go from 1,000 to (now)..1,500 to 2,000. Another good example is an original 1813 2nd class cross .... used to go for about 1,000....now, double that. For TR period, the only exceptions I have seen are put-together groups or "post-war knock-offs" made by the original manufacturer...particularly in the Knight's cross category. What i also find fascinating is the quick rise in U.S. medals (from WW2 and earlier). Those prices have seen some marked inflation, but I can't share to what degree... Dan __________________ Dan S. Florida, USA

11-27-2005, 10:53 PM	#416
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	Looking Back at Old Prices - The Good Old Days... Or Not! I have a penchant for keeping old catalogs. Tonight, I was looking through some from a well-known Soviet awards dealer. I have one of his earlier catalogs (September 1996) and about 20 copies later through what I believe to be his last published catalog (November 2002.) I thought it would be interesting to take a little trip “through memory lane” to look at the prices that were “retail” (collector-to-collector was about 10% cheaper, normally) for the day. I’ve taken a selection of military awards from each of three catalogs: September 1996, April 1999 and November 2002. I tried my best to make “even” comparisons to awards in the same condition, history (all are unresearched unless otherwise noted) and the like. September 1996 Red Star (post WW2) $17 Red Star (7-digit s/n) $18 Red Star (6 digit s/n) $20 OGPW 2 (6 digit s/n) $25 ($35 w/document) OGPW 2 (suspended) $260 OGPW 1 (WW2) $240 OGPW 1 (suspended) $350 Red Banner (post war) $30 Red Banner (WW2) $35 Red Banner (screwback) $125 Glory 3rd $25 Glory 2nd $120 Homeland 3rd $250 Nevsky $385 Khmelnitsky 3rd $850 Kutuzov 3rd $1220 Kutuzov 2nd $1640 Kutuzov 1st $8900 Lenin (“on suspension” WW2-issue) $750 Lenin (“3rd type” screwback) $995 Ushakov Medal $385 Nakhimov Medal $360 Interesting to note is the lack of single HSU Gold Stars (not even any groups!) and other “high end” awards save for the single Kutuzov 1st. April 1999 Gold Star HSU $1950 Red Star (post WW2) $14 Red Star (7-digit s/n) $15 Red Star (6 digit s/n) $16 OGPW 2 (6 digit s/n) $24 OGPW 2 (suspended) none OGPW 1 (WW2) $190 OGPW 1 (suspended) none Red Banner (post war) $30 Red Banner (WW2) $35 Red Banner (screwback) $125 Glory 3rd $20 Glory 2nd $120 Glory 1st $1900 Homeland 3rd $120 Nevsky $330 Suvorov 2nd $3100 Khmelnitsky 3rd $640 Khmelnitsky 2nd $1700 Khmelnitsky 1st $6950 Kutuzov 3rd $1050 Kutuzov 2nd $1350 Kutuzov 1st $6900 Lenin (WW2 issue) $520 Lenin (“3rd type” screwback) $2700 (T4 screwbacks were $1050 on average) Ushakov Medal $390 Nakhimov Medal $330 Almost three years later, and surprisingly the prices had actually gone DOWN on nearly all of the awards! Interestingly, the number of HSU/HSL groups was enormous - enough to fill nearly the first eight pages of the catalog! November 2002 Gold Star HSU $1740 Red Star (post WW2) $15 Red Star (7-digit s/n) $17 Red Star (6 digit s/n) $19 OGPW 2 (6 digit s/n) $34 OGPW 2 (suspended) $250 OGPW 1 (WW2) $170 OGPW 1 (suspended) $380 Red Banner (post war) $45 Red Banner (WW2) $55 Red Banner (screwback) $95 Glory 3rd $20 Glory 2nd $150 Glory 1st $1575 Homeland 3rd none Nevsky $380 Suvorov 3rd $925 Suvorov 2nd $2550 Khmelnitsky 3rd $695 Khmelnitsky 2nd $1780 Khmelnitsky 1st $7950 Kutuzov 3rd $1095 (with research) Kutuzov 2nd $1425 Kutuzov 1st $6950 (with research) Lenin (WW2 issue) $595 Lenin (“3rd type” screwback) $1995 (T4 screwbacks were $1150 on average) Ushakov Medal none Nakhimov Medal none Thus, over a span of six years of Soviet awards values, it’s interesting to see how the prices varied, and that since November 2002, how much prices have skyrocketed! Here’s a summary of our prices from the three years, plus the prices asked currently from the same dealer. They are listed in order from September 1996 through November 2005: Gold Star HSU (none) (1950) (1740) (4800 - though with one document) Red Star (post WW2) (17) (14) (15) (32) Red Star (7-digit s/n) (18) (15) (17) (37) Red Star (6 digit s/n) (20) (16) (19) (75) OGPW 2 (6 digit s/n) (25) (24) (34) (85) OGPW 2 (suspended) (260) (none) (250) (none) OGPW 1 (WW2) (240) (190) (170) (325) OGPW 1 (suspended) (350) (none) (380) (none) Red Banner (post war) (30) (30) (45) (130) Red Banner (WW2) (35) (35) (55) (160) Red Banner (screwback) (125) (125) (95) (575) Glory 3rd (25) (20) (20) (45) Glory 2nd (120) (120) (150) (345) Glory 1st (none) (1900) (1575) (none) Homeland 3rd (250) (120) (none) (295) Nevsky (385) (330) (380) (1340) Suvorov 2nd (none) (3100) (2550) (14800) Khmelnitsky 3rd (850) (640) (695) (3800) Khmelnitsky 2nd (none) (1700) (1780) (11995) Khmelnitsky 1st (none) (6950) (7950) (none) Kutuzov 3rd (1220) (1050) (1095 w/research) (7700) Kutuzov 2nd (1640) (1350) (1425) (7950) Kutuzov 1st (8900) (6900) (6950 w/research) (none) Lenin (WW2 issue) (750) (520) (595) (none) Lenin (“3rd type” screwback) (995) (2700) (1995) (none) Ushakov Medal (385) (390) (none) (none) Nakhimov Medal (360) (330) (none) (1050) I think the old adage of “buy nice stuff, the value will go up” can be clearly seen in this case! Well, thanks for taking the trip down memory lane with me. I hope you’ve had as much fun reading this as I had making it! Dave Last edited by Dave; 11-27-2005 at 10:56 PM.

11-28-2005, 08:39 AM	#417
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	Ahh, the good old age... Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

11-28-2005, 10:28 AM	#418
medalklector Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: London Posts: 48	If you had a few 2nd Class Suvorov's you'd be laughing. And they say that you can't go wrong with property __________________ "When the man with the rifle gets killed, the man without picks up the rifle and shoots....."

09-09-2005, 09:35 PM	#413
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	Over the past month or so I've had the itch to pick up a nice WW2 German eastern front group (not sure where my money is going to come from for it, but I'm playing that one by ear!) Anyway, I've started watching the prices for legit German TR awards and have been surprised. When I first started collecting Soviet awards in 1992, I had been collecting TR before that and found that Soviet awards were a much better deal financially. After watching now several dozens of high-end German awards get sold, I wonder if now the reverse is not the case... In the past two weeks I've seen two Knights Crosses sell - one for $4500 the other for $5000. Having one of these would be the "gem" of most mortal's German collections, yet ironically they sell for 2/3 of the price of a Kutuzov 3rd! Interestingly, I've watched a lot of decent German awards (and documented award groups) sell in the $1000 and less category (with a few exceptions) yet what can you buy now Soviet-wise in that category? Not much! Anyway, just a small thing I noted. Funny how things come "full circle" sometimes... Dave

11-28-2005, 10:35 AM	#419
Nack Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Buckeye State Age: 46 Posts: 513	Interesting that, comparatively, the Order of Glory 3rd Class has hardly appreciated at all. Earned through bravery, and a neat-looking award too. Strange.

11-28-2005, 12:06 PM	#420
redmedals Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Shediac, New Brunswick Age: 68 Posts: 99	Indeed the good old days. I see there are no prices quoted for late 1980's and early 1990's when Soviet medals of any kind were nearly impossible to find and very very expensive the high orders and titles impossible to find. Then the Soviet Union disintegrated. In my opinion the prices you refer to reflect the big exodus of Soviet medals from the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics in the mid to late 1990's back then it was a buyer's market. Supply is now drying up and harder to get at the source so it is a seller's market and this is reflected in the rising prices over the past two years. I would feel safe in saying the age old simple law of supply and demand is at work here. Ron

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