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04-11-2002, 10:37 AM | #1 |
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Stolen Awards.
i was reading that brillaint aritcal on the holders of all 3 orders of glory but what stuck in my mind was the fact that the orders were stolen,so i was wondering who then owns these orders realy and how many of use own stolen orders and medals,as you know with the current climate in russain if it aint nailed down they il try to sell it, i do wonder weather my order of nevswky is stolen or was just sold by the holder or there familys?
what the rest of you
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04-11-2002, 04:36 PM | #2 |
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Patrick,
Many of these awards were supposed to be returned to the government upon the death of the recipient. Some were allowed to be kept by the family as a memento. The only thing you can really do is try to buy from a dealer who seems honest. I know that sounds naive. If the guy says they were stolen, let your conscience be your guide. I wouldn't buy them if they were stolen. I also look at it this way. If a few dollars can help out a vet, then I have no problem buying his awards. Many of these veterans can't even afford simple medications. This goes for a Russian, American or any veteran...I would hope that out of respect, the dealer buying them from the vet would give them a substantial cut, but again, I'm being naive. Art
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04-12-2002, 01:42 PM | #3 |
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Hi Art and mcwirsk,
I am with Art. As sad it would be to a veteran to sold his past, I will prefare to buy the orders/medals directly from him - in this case I am sure not only about authenticity, but as to who gets the money. After that - from reliable dealler - which I am sure payed the veteran only small amount than my payment to him - but it's the way things are done. If I will know for sure that a piece is stolen, I will not buy it. BTW, If somone from the COLLECTOR's community is missing a piece, due to theft, this is the place to try to locate it and to give us a worning about stolen items. Tal |
04-12-2002, 02:03 PM | #4 |
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I would have to agree with the crowd here. I would definitely not buy the award if I know that it was stolen or obtained by other inappropriate means without the consent of the original recipient or their family. I read a very story about an admiral that was killed several years ago for his two orders of Ushakov 1st class. One was offered for sale in USA not too long ago.
On another note, I agree with Tal, if anyone has had items stolen from them at a show... etc this is the place to post numbers. |
04-12-2002, 02:05 PM | #5 |
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Dear Tal
I think have a great idea to have a place to look for stolen or missing medals. I had a nice Afghan red star KIA group go missing in the post and it would be great to be able to warn other collectors to be on the look out. How about it Art!!!! I do not only collect Soviet medals and in SA I buy quite a lot of British medals locally and being the crazy fanatic I am, I research them. This leads me many times back to the family. Unfortunately some of the medals turn out to be stolen or the family states so. Many times they are embarrassed to say they sold them. This issue is always going to be part of our hobby. I don’t know how to stop it. regards |
04-12-2002, 02:31 PM | #6 |
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yes but what happens when you find out that your red star or your ordr or glory 2nd is actuly stolen,if you found the family would you return them? i havent reseached any medals yet due to not reading russain and not having a credit card but when i get a bit older i will reserch my orders and medals and should i find out that they are stolen i think the right thing o do would be to give them back(hard as it my be it would be the right think)
on another note i know this rarly happens but vertearns have ripped collecters off in the past,there was a case there a few years ago in germany where a knights cross winner sold 8 different poeple fake knights crosses(he kept his real one!) and because it was bought off a vet nobody though to look twice,but as that great old roman saying goes(i suppose)its buyer beware but i still will endeaver to find out the history of my collecting no matter what the out come is
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"Right ok so apart from the roads,education,sanition, medicine,the wine,the aquaducts, irragation, the public baths,a fresh water system and public order, what have the romans ever done for us?"........ reg from life of brian. |
04-12-2002, 03:00 PM | #7 |
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It’s a very tricky question. First of all, 99% of the cases it’s not possible to determine if the awards were stolen. A lot of them were stolen but not necessary from veterans or families. Until late 70s when veteran died, his awards went to State. They end up in museums or other official places where they were kept. When Soviet Union has collapsed, many items were stolen from museum, especially on territory of former Soviet Republics. In many museums original awards were replaced by fakes. Second, it’s still illegal to sell Soviet awards in Russia. That’s why there are cases when families sold the awards, but stated they had been stolen to avoid any complication with this matter. Also to avoid a shame for selling family relics.
As for “reputable dealers”, I know how they get their material. They can tell you any story but almost all of their material changes a few hands before dealers get it in US. They don’t know themselves where it came from originally in most of the cases. It’s typical scenario when someone brought the award to the antique store in Russia. Then the owner of the store sold it to the middleman, who sold it to a dealer in Russia, who sold to US dealer. How can you track if it’s stolen? Mahdi, you were talking about admiral Holostyakov. He had two Ushakov 1st class and was killed when his apartment was robbed. Probably, robbers were looking for his awards but didn’t get them. They were caught. The all awards of Holostyakov were given to Museum of Russian Far East Fleet in Vladivostok but were stolen from there and now going around. |
04-12-2002, 05:26 PM | #8 |
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I think there is a legal issue the states that one may not pass more rights than what you have. This means that if its stolen - its always stolen no matter how many hands it goes through.
I am sure that we have all been faced with being offered a "piece" that we must have and knowing that its source is dubious. I would not like to be quoted but in SA, after transition many museums found items missing. Its clear that they left the country and that some collectors out there have these pieces knowingly and unknowingly. Its just a fact of life in our hobby and one must just do the best to "do the right thing" Lets get a section going for stolen, missing and broken groups. At least this is a start. who agrees? |
04-12-2002, 05:33 PM | #9 |
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I am.
Art once promissed to do so when the number of members will be in th 2 figures...so, Art?? |
04-12-2002, 10:58 PM | #10 |
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Guys,
I think the premise of the creation of this type of forum is valid. However, given the massive amounts of awards out there ( for example the Red Star ), do you think it would be realistic to expect a hit on a missing award? Taking into consideration that we should expect a very low hit rate, should we even attempt to create this "database" of missing awards? this project would need ALOT of exposure in order to generate the type of results I think we are hoping to achieve. We would need hundreds if not thousands of members all actively participating to see results. Art
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