11-28-2009, 08:36 AM
DISCLAIMER: I've only been a member of this forum for nearly a year and a half, so if the following has been discussed at length previously in other threads, please just give me the link(s) to them and we needn't go on a long tear about the following.
Something Doug said recently got me thinking about a problem that has been buried in the back of my mind for a very long time. In his thread about the FSB flag, he responded to my post about the best pieces being in museums with: "The best peices WERE in museums. Some still are."
So then that nagging problem that I kept in a locked room in my brain got out. The problem is the constant possibility that one may be buying an item that was stolen at some point from either a museum, private collection or simply by a greedy nephew who nicked an elderly Russian's personal awards for some quick cash.
In one particular case Larry ("Tshirtlarry") told me about, he was offered some of the rarest of orders - Suvorovs, Ushakovs, Kutuzovs and others for between $50 and $100 a piece back in the early 90s in New York by a former Russian museum employee whose employer could not afford to pay him, so before emigrating to the US, he took a few pieces from the storeroom (i.e. not displayed) as his "severance." Larry didn't buy them, but this anecdote does present an interesting ethical dilema.
I wouldn't knowly buy something that was taken from a museum, but since I also don't have a record of all the numbered orders and medals that are (or were) in legitimate museums or collections, I or anyone else could potentionally be buying stolen property, especially after it has changed hands a couple of times and the current owner/seller has no knowledge of where it came from.
One of my questions to the gentlemen who patiently work their way through the archives to research orders and numbered medals is this: Has such research ever shown that an item is stolen? The other is: Is it possible to determine that an award is stolen via research?
I'm sure that our database helps keep track of awards that are currently in the hands of honest collectors. But the next question is: what if there is a question about an award being sold by either a dealer who has a questionable history or even simply someone on eBay, and I, as a potential buyer, want to know the pedigree of the award, especially if it is stolen? Is there some way to find out? Is there a Russian website where stolen items' serial numbers are listed, or is the job simply too herculean a task to attempt considering the enormous amount of pilfering that occurred shortly after the breakup of the Soviet Union? The economy was so bad then in Russia that jokes about selling Lenin's body turned out not to be entirely without foundation.
Some of my earliest pieces, before I even considered myself a "serious collector" were either given to me by their, or their surviving families' original owners. Others I bought from some Russians for two or three times what they were asking just because they needed the money and were furious with the Soviet system that had "let them down" and quite frankly wanted them out of their homes/apartments. One widow pensioner told me once that though she loved her husband and wished to honor his memory, she didn't want any reminders of the "government system" that she believed had "killed" her husband at an early age with all their production quotas - "I can't eat his medals. They can at least buy me food and clothes that my pension won't." I gave her a hundred dollar bill and asked her to please keep them, she wouldn't hear of it (and if you know anything about Russian culture and giving things, there was no way I was leaving without them and risking that kind of insult - she poured me a glass of vodka and on her way to get some pickles and "black" bread, I saw her put the two medals in my coat pocket).
Moreover, many younger people who had done their mandatory time in military service gladly gave me their army and navy coats and other soviet military items because they were happy to be rid of them and glad to help an ill-prepared young American stay warm (after removing all insignia). They were also trying to make a "clean break" and get on with making a living in the new economic system.
Either way, I came by some of the best pieces of my collection via gifts (a naval ceremonial dagger is the first that springs to mind) or purchases from individuals or sellers at Izmilevsky Park. Those constitite about 25 percent of my current collection. The rest I bought mostly from the auction site or from sellers I struck up a relationship with through that site. It's the last 75 percent and any future purchases I make that I am wondering about. Which is why since I joined this forum, I have only made purchases of numbered orders, medals and other items through other members I've come to know, respect and trust.
As I said before, I would no more knowingly buy a stolen award, regardless of the price, than I would steal money from the "poor box" in a church. These awards are works of historical and artistic value that have immense importance in both categories and I feel extrememly fortunate to own the ones I do have. Because of them, and with the help of this forum, I have learned and still am learning about a fascinating society, rich with culture and anthropological and social-psychological information. I often write here in posts about the educational value of Soviet awards in terms of understanding how the most famous communist government functioned and tried to motivate the citizens to maintain the system, even when faced with vast corruption and a failing economy and severe shortages of food and other commodities. This last part pertains mostly to post-WWII awards in the labor (production) category.
Having said all of this, I know that if I discovered, by some miraculous means, that an order or medal I have in my collection was originally stolen, especially from a museum, I would want to return it to where or whom it rightfully belongs. However, I fear that definitive proof that this is the case would be next to impossible to obtain (other than Norm's BM incident where he posted the warnings with the serial number regularly). I suspect that the current Russian government probably considers ALL Soviet awards "stolen" or "contraband" if they are not still on Russian soil, but this is a dubious position and one taken for mostly political reasons, to my mind at least.
Thus the same question: Can we know?
Phillip
Something Doug said recently got me thinking about a problem that has been buried in the back of my mind for a very long time. In his thread about the FSB flag, he responded to my post about the best pieces being in museums with: "The best peices WERE in museums. Some still are."
So then that nagging problem that I kept in a locked room in my brain got out. The problem is the constant possibility that one may be buying an item that was stolen at some point from either a museum, private collection or simply by a greedy nephew who nicked an elderly Russian's personal awards for some quick cash.
In one particular case Larry ("Tshirtlarry") told me about, he was offered some of the rarest of orders - Suvorovs, Ushakovs, Kutuzovs and others for between $50 and $100 a piece back in the early 90s in New York by a former Russian museum employee whose employer could not afford to pay him, so before emigrating to the US, he took a few pieces from the storeroom (i.e. not displayed) as his "severance." Larry didn't buy them, but this anecdote does present an interesting ethical dilema.
I wouldn't knowly buy something that was taken from a museum, but since I also don't have a record of all the numbered orders and medals that are (or were) in legitimate museums or collections, I or anyone else could potentionally be buying stolen property, especially after it has changed hands a couple of times and the current owner/seller has no knowledge of where it came from.
One of my questions to the gentlemen who patiently work their way through the archives to research orders and numbered medals is this: Has such research ever shown that an item is stolen? The other is: Is it possible to determine that an award is stolen via research?
I'm sure that our database helps keep track of awards that are currently in the hands of honest collectors. But the next question is: what if there is a question about an award being sold by either a dealer who has a questionable history or even simply someone on eBay, and I, as a potential buyer, want to know the pedigree of the award, especially if it is stolen? Is there some way to find out? Is there a Russian website where stolen items' serial numbers are listed, or is the job simply too herculean a task to attempt considering the enormous amount of pilfering that occurred shortly after the breakup of the Soviet Union? The economy was so bad then in Russia that jokes about selling Lenin's body turned out not to be entirely without foundation.
Some of my earliest pieces, before I even considered myself a "serious collector" were either given to me by their, or their surviving families' original owners. Others I bought from some Russians for two or three times what they were asking just because they needed the money and were furious with the Soviet system that had "let them down" and quite frankly wanted them out of their homes/apartments. One widow pensioner told me once that though she loved her husband and wished to honor his memory, she didn't want any reminders of the "government system" that she believed had "killed" her husband at an early age with all their production quotas - "I can't eat his medals. They can at least buy me food and clothes that my pension won't." I gave her a hundred dollar bill and asked her to please keep them, she wouldn't hear of it (and if you know anything about Russian culture and giving things, there was no way I was leaving without them and risking that kind of insult - she poured me a glass of vodka and on her way to get some pickles and "black" bread, I saw her put the two medals in my coat pocket).
Moreover, many younger people who had done their mandatory time in military service gladly gave me their army and navy coats and other soviet military items because they were happy to be rid of them and glad to help an ill-prepared young American stay warm (after removing all insignia). They were also trying to make a "clean break" and get on with making a living in the new economic system.
Either way, I came by some of the best pieces of my collection via gifts (a naval ceremonial dagger is the first that springs to mind) or purchases from individuals or sellers at Izmilevsky Park. Those constitite about 25 percent of my current collection. The rest I bought mostly from the auction site or from sellers I struck up a relationship with through that site. It's the last 75 percent and any future purchases I make that I am wondering about. Which is why since I joined this forum, I have only made purchases of numbered orders, medals and other items through other members I've come to know, respect and trust.
As I said before, I would no more knowingly buy a stolen award, regardless of the price, than I would steal money from the "poor box" in a church. These awards are works of historical and artistic value that have immense importance in both categories and I feel extrememly fortunate to own the ones I do have. Because of them, and with the help of this forum, I have learned and still am learning about a fascinating society, rich with culture and anthropological and social-psychological information. I often write here in posts about the educational value of Soviet awards in terms of understanding how the most famous communist government functioned and tried to motivate the citizens to maintain the system, even when faced with vast corruption and a failing economy and severe shortages of food and other commodities. This last part pertains mostly to post-WWII awards in the labor (production) category.
Having said all of this, I know that if I discovered, by some miraculous means, that an order or medal I have in my collection was originally stolen, especially from a museum, I would want to return it to where or whom it rightfully belongs. However, I fear that definitive proof that this is the case would be next to impossible to obtain (other than Norm's BM incident where he posted the warnings with the serial number regularly). I suspect that the current Russian government probably considers ALL Soviet awards "stolen" or "contraband" if they are not still on Russian soil, but this is a dubious position and one taken for mostly political reasons, to my mind at least.
Thus the same question: Can we know?
Phillip
Phillip
