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+----- Thread: NKVD branch colours (/Thread-NKVD-branch-colours)
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NKVD branch colours - kliment - 10-28-2007
Hello,
The little Belgian continues to try to understand. I have a few questions about the branch colours of the NKVD/GUGB at the beginning of the war. I have post a picture for each:
Pic.1: General-lieutenant I.I. Maslennikov (NKVD) in parade dress. Are the collar tabs blue?
Pic.2: The site civil-uniform.narod.ru gives this as the collar tab for a commissar of state security 1st rank from 1937-1943. No change with the 1940 reforms (as for the political commissars)?
Pic.3: Webster & Nelson identify that as the general’s cap of NKVD military security, and a officer’s cap with the same branch colour as a military intelligence officer. Is it GRU, NKGB 2nd directorate, cavalry?
NKVD branch colours - Lapa - 10-28-2007
Kliment,
I believe that answer to question 1 and 2 should be the same: color is brick as far as I know.
Marc
NKVD branch colours - DougD - 10-28-2007
The M1940 uniform in Webster/Nelson was incorrectly noted as Military Intel. and is just an NKVD general. That exact tunic is for sale by a large dealer right now (not me).
NKVD branch colours - vvadim - 10-28-2007
kliment Wrote:Pic.1: General-lieutenant I.I. Maslennikov (NKVD) in parade dress. Are the collar tabs blue?Generals of NKVD troops have exactly the same colors as they army counterparts. General Maslenikov had red collar’s tabs, piping etc.
kliment Wrote:Pic.2: The site civil-uniform.narod.ru gives this as the collar tab for a commissar of state security 1st rank from 1937-1943. No change with the 1940 reforms (as for the political commissars)?Yes no changes until 1943.
kliment Wrote:Pic.3: Webster & Nelson identify that as the general’s cap of NKVD military security, and a officer’s cap with the same branch colour as a military intelligence officer. Is it GRU, NKGB 2nd directorate, cavalry?I believe it's entirely made from scratch, but definitely has nothing to do with GRU, NKGB or Cavalry.
DougD Wrote:The M1940 uniform in Webster/Nelson was incorrectly noted as Military Intel. and is just an NKVD general. That exact tunic is for sale by a large dealer right now (not me).That’s entirely fantasy tunic, no such branch colors ever existed.
NKVD branch colours - DougD - 10-28-2007
I'll have to disagree with you on this point. NKVD historian Shawn Caza also had one in his NKVD uniform collection for quite a few years that came from very good source. It is not the one in the Webster / Nelson book, but like the one in the W/N book it had the four pockets and royal blue cuff and collar rank; it may not have been in the regulations but i do not think it was a repro. As for the cap in W/N I have not seen another like it not have I held it, so I will not comment on it.
NKVD branch colours - vvadim - 10-28-2007
I don’t know what Shawn Caza have for quite a few years, but Webster/Nelson was made in 1994, that I believe it’s quite a few years too, but it’s doesn’t make it real.
Visor hat it’s either made from scratch or converted from something like this.
This is photograph of Head of GRU general-lieutenant Golikov. Color tabs, piping, visor hat is in RED.
NKVD branch colours - DougD - 10-28-2007
I am not sure what your point is with the 'red' ; as stated, only the Webster / Nelson book (1998) called the tunic 'GRU', which was already noted as an error (even the seller now does not fully call it GRU, but lists it as NKVD first, but notes what the book states).
Having a uniform in a book does not make it real (look at the M1945 Marshal in the W/N book), but not having an original photo of it or having it in regulations does not make it fake. I'd rather see non-multiple examples as well as construction errors (as there are in the 'M1945 marshal' in that book) before deciding it was fake.
I simply do not think these 2 M1940, four pocket generals tunics that I have seen are fake. I guess we will have to disagree on this.
NKVD branch colours - vvadim - 10-28-2007
It’s useless discussion. For something like this I’m trying to explain why it’s not possible and show pictures of original regulations. But as only argument you have, you keep saying: “Not everything goes by regulations. I’ve seen it before. Friend of mine have it for many years, etc.” I feel sorry for your friend, but you can believe in whatever you want.
NKVD branch colours - DougD - 10-28-2007
vvadim,
As moderator I have tried to be patient with your attitude in recent threads; this is not a confrontational forum (they are around), a point that you seem to have difficulty with. This is a forum based on collectors sharing what they have seen/learned/bought/sold, etc. It's one of the reasons we do not get bogged down like so many other forums in personal attacks and insults.
Each person here is entitled to their opinions on these subjects (or to whatever signature they wish to use) without insult or a degrading set of comments by you. If you can not learn the concept of RESPECTABLE disagreement then perhaps this is not the place for you. You have been disciplined by another moderator already, so I do not consider this is a first warning.
While I do not think any action is needed here now (and I may be over ruled by another moderator), please consider this a 2nd warning on how to use the forum properly.
If you need any more clarification please send a PM.
Thank you,
DougD
Moderator - Cloth
NKVD branch colours - Nack - 10-28-2007
This detour seems to occur a lot. The seller of the W/N-book tunic does not usually deal in repros. I think we can all agree that the regulations were not adhered to 100% of the time, and the higher rank you were, the more you could get away with.
If I were a NKVD general, I'd rather go with the blue and distinguish myself from your ordinary generals, and if there isn't anyone with a higher rank around, who is going to stop you?