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+---- Thread: looking for a soviet/cossack sabre (/Thread-looking-for-a-soviet-cossack-sabre)
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - matteti - 02-09-2010
Nota Bene Wrote:Interesting! Where does this information come from? All my information about swords comes from Kulinsky, and his books are far from complete.
Alexei
Alexei, Unfortunately, I cannot quote anybody or any reference book. This is what I came to understand from discussing with Doug (info he got from his contacts) and searching the net, reading some posts (I think from vvadim). Looks like pirochki also knows some good info about shashkas.
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - DougD - 02-09-2010
As for the NKVD reference, It is just something I was told by my Russians and take it for that. I have nothing to back it up and do not really get into shashkas...it's a great looking one though!
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - Nota Bene - 02-09-2010
Thanks, guys! I've done some research on the Russian Internet. It would appear that this is a popular theory, but no documents were ever found confirming that these were indeed issued to NKVD Security Troops or NKVD Militia. Most collectors seem to be skeptical about it and believe that the manufacturers started using the white metal trying to save on more expensive brass.
Alexei
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - matteti - 02-10-2010
It seems Igor also believes that this type/variation (silverish color) was used by NKVD. He currently has one similar 1937-marked for sale on his website. I remember to have seen the other type (golden color) before on his site and it was advertised as "Soviet cavalry officer shashka" with no mention about NKVD.
I don't know about metal cost and availability, but I noticed that the wartime shashkas didn't have all the detailed engraving on the pommel. They had a very simple pommel.
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - Erick - 03-14-2010
Looking into the Shaska and all that is been written about it i would like to add the following.
Shaska sabres were kept in the family and used from father to son. When part of the Cossacks in 1917 sided with the Communists they were called "Red Cossacks", while others were called "White Cossacks".
We know who won this civil war, and the "White Cossacks" were stripped of all belongings and imprisoned/executed or fled Russia any way they could.
Finding a Shaska with only the Imperial eagle on the pommel will have a good chance of coming from the 'White Cossacks".
A Shaska with a "Hammer and Sickle" cymbol and the C.C.C.P. markings will be a captured one or one used by the "red Cossacks".
Making the Imperial eagle dissapear on the pommels of Shaska sabres in use was symbolic for the communist revolution, but to fabricate new pommels and to exchange them for the imperial type was not an issue in the first years of the U.S.S.R.
It is more likely old stock was used and when finished a new type without any markings was introduced. Reminders of the Imperial realm were most likely abandoned as soon as possible. Therefore it seems unlikely that a Shaska produced in the 1930's would still bear an Imperial eagle underneath the hammer and sickle symbol. Of course blades get busted and have to be changed, which could explain newer blades on old handles.
Many of the "White Cossacks" joined the German army and fought aganist the Red Army in world war 2.
They were issued new Shaska sabres, made in Solingen and with mostly brass grips. It is likely some amitained the Russian imperial marked Shaska, why change a good Sabre?
There was a Cossack community in Italy towards the end of the war. In 1945 these Cossacks were extridited by the allied troops to the red army and many were slaughtered in Austria or send to the labourcamps in Siberia. German Shaska sabres and jewel and gold prize sabres went missing during this period, most likely ended up in the hands of English soldiers or local citizens.
One point on old swords , knives guns and especially sabres ( favourite) : Cleaning is fine, but taking away the patina layer and making an old weapon shine like new is somewhat of an abuse. The patina layer is what makes a weapon genuine and gives it the respect of old age, while a shiney new looking weapon of a 100 years old loses al lot of attraction. Sometimes making things look new is not an improvement.
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - Erick - 03-14-2010
Some more Shaska
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - Erick - 03-14-2010
and some more. Note markings on handpart and blade, can anyone decipher these?
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - Erick - 03-14-2010
And the last one. This particular sabre turned up in Holland. There are reports of Cossack soldiers being buried near the town of IJmuiden Holland, but this is not confirmed.
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - vvadim - 05-22-2010
Erick Wrote:and some more. Note markings on handpart and blade, can anyone decipher these?After repair in the army’s shop blade and scabbard were adjusted to fit each other. They were marked with matching numbers like examples below. Letters Г and M (or any other for that matter) are technological markings. Please note letter M on all brass parts.
15 КГ is result of the test done on the blade
looking for a soviet/cossack sabre - vvadim - 05-22-2010
Erick Wrote:Making the Imperial eagle dissapear on the pommels of Shaska sabres in use was symbolic for the communist revolution, but to fabricate new pommels and to exchange them for the imperial type was not an issue in the first years of the U.S.S.R.
May be it will come as big surprise to you, but Imperial eagle never was on any part of any Cossacks’ shaskas and after outbreak of the war “soviet imperial eagle”:) was also removed from all shashkas.