+- The Soviet Military Awards Page Forum (https://soviet-awards.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Soviet Awards Forums (https://soviet-awards.com/forum/Forum-Soviet-Awards-Forums)
+--- Forum: General And Slightly Off Topic Talk (https://soviet-awards.com/forum/Forum-General-And-Slightly-Off-Topic-Talk)
+---- Forum: General Talk Archive (https://soviet-awards.com/forum/Forum-General-Talk-Archive)
+---- Thread: Orders and documents (/Thread-Orders-and-documents)
Orders and documents - Lapa - 12-10-2010
Bob Wrote:...Finally, and this may trigger a roll of the eyes, in all collecting areas i think it pays off to go for as "high end" as possible from the start. The high end stuff typically becomes more expensive/difficult to find over time... whereas the low end stuff will always be easy to get. Also, on the high end it is perhaps easier to get validation of the authenticity...
Bob,
I agree 100% with you on that point.
Marc
Orders and documents - medals73 - 12-10-2010
When I started collecting (what seems like tens of thousands of years ago), I was given some very good advice by one of the silver-backs in the field:
1- Buy books and subscribe to journals. Set aside 80% of your collecting budget [budget?!] for books. This leaves 20% for medals. Every year, shift 5% from books to medals but never allow the books category to fall below 20%. Knowledge will be your friend and savior. [This remains just as true today, even in an age where so many seem to expect all information -- and a bunch of misinformation -- to be available online and for free.]
2- Focus on the rare high-end material. [This duplicates and reinforces a comment made above.] The common stuff will always be available, the once-in-a-lifetime item may be just that, even if you have to play serious budget-rearranging games.
3- Focus on things that aren't just pretty "things" but which have research value. There will be times (for whatever reason) when the medals just don't come along and volunteer to be added to your collection (or the prices are too high), but the research is always a possibility. To paraphrase the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers (did I just date myself?): Research will always get you through times of no medals.
4- If something can be researched, you have the duty to do that research (or to have it done). Include those costs in your budget in the "medals" category.
5- Seek a focus, but don't rush things. Everyone begins as a magpie, collecting nice shiny things that strike your eye. No problem. A focus will come, and this focus will change over time.
6- Do not collect with an eye on investment (or even on value). [This, too, has been said above.] Collect things of value to you, and often you will pay over "market value". That is what auctions are all about, some damn fool with a willingness, for whatever reason, to pay too much. When you sell things, make sure you are are aware that you WILL come to regret that decision.
7- Buy only from reliable dealers with a good reputation and solid return policy (those are ultimately more important than low prices or even good stock). [This is even more true than it was way back then when the abomination that is eBay could not have been imagined.]
8- Whatever field you select, cultivate language skills in that area. And do this while you are young(er), while the brain cells still function.
9- Do not automatically see collecting as an extension of your own national accident of birth. You may learn much more by collecting awards from elsewhere.
My two tugriks worth . . . .
Orders and documents - jcuffe6240 - 12-10-2010
So can anyone recommend some online dealers that I should maybe look at for buying from? I know how easy it is to just go to eBay and start buying away.
Orders and documents - deValcourt - 12-11-2010
jcuffe6240 Wrote:Well feel free to private message me a few names. It would certainly help me out a lot.
Welcome to the forum. You seem to have the right attitude for a beginner - in fact, I wish I had started with my brain as you are rather than what I thought was "cool." I could probably have retired.
And of course that last statement is far from true.I also suspect you will get several PMs regarding good sellers - there are a few of them still out there.
Now, at the risk of having Ed hurl curses at me for saying this, don't throw out the idea of eBay all together. Just for diversion this week I bid on about 7 or 8 items that all started very low and without a reserve (a couple of ORSs, CSMs, ORBLs and something else I forget). I came across these sellers by chance, they are all based somewhere in North America (so postal tracking is great) and they seem to be selling off their own collections because one guy had 5 or 6 ORSs and the other had about the same number of Red Banners of Labor (two with booklets). Most importantly, their scores as buyers/sellers were between 300-500 which means to me that they are not doing this to try to earn a living and thus have less interest in going through the trouble of forgery/fakery.
The other trick is to simply decide on a "top dollar" price that you are willing to pay for something, put that amount in within the last 12 hours, and (here's the important part) don't check on it again until after the auction is over. Sure you may lose by one or two dollars, but if you had watched it to the very end, you might have gotten caught up in the fever of bidding and found yourself paying way more than you should have.
I lost about 75% of the ones I bid on, but I picked up a nice 1.2mil ORS with perfect enamel from the MMD in 1945 (Echoes of War and a list on this forum), a 6-digit CSM on a 5-sided suspension with award doc (real or not) and a couple of MVD/KGB aluminum anniversary badges all for under $100.
Now, I'm not saying this happens all the time, but when you play the odds like I mentioned above, you tend to come away with a good deal fairly often (once a month).
I should add this notion as well. I lost out on a really cool "jumbo" ORBL flat-back with an uncommon mint mark (the seller made no mention of it) by $1, and the sale price was $76 - because I simply assumed the price would just keep climbing way past my max bid. So if it is something you really want, then you have to play the eBay game up to the last seconds - literally.
Practically every day it seems that somebody new pops up with about a dozen items for sale at low or no starting bids. But if I spent all the time necessary to catch every good deal, I would have to quit my job, kick this annoying sleep habit and forget about having a roof under which I can store and display my collection (and I can assure you everyone here started with just a few items).:thumbsup
So far, one of the best pieces of advice I've seen is to try to narrow your field of interest as much as you can at this stage so you don't just meander along without a goal. At the same time, there is something to be said for casting a wide net and then shedding - or to continue the metaphor - throwing back what you don't need later. However, even after doing this for at least 20 years on and off, I have yet to throw anything back.
Soon.Phillip
Orders and documents - jcuffe6240 - 12-11-2010
This has all been some very sound advice. I think I will start into the civilian orders first as these seem to be the most readily available to a beginner. Plus I find these to be the most beautiful of the awards. I have a few military orders already, so I might just wait on the military side.
Just out of curiosity, how many of the same orders do you guys like to collect? Do you usually have multiples of the same order? Why do that?
Orders and documents - RedBanner1920 - 12-12-2010
Just out of curiosity, how many of the same orders do you guys like to collect? Do you usually have multiples of the same order? Why do that?[/QUOTE]
For me there's no limit on collecting different variations of the same order. If i can afford it and the price is reasonable i will generally buy it , if its a order i really like for example i own 6 Order of the red banners and im always looking for my 7th! Like many have stated collecting is addictive!
There is a saying in AA that one is too many and a 1000 is never enough i think this also applies to collecting as well!
Orders and documents - deValcourt - 12-12-2010
REDBANNER1920 Wrote:Like many have stated collecting is addictive!
There is a saying in AA that one is too many and a 1000 is never enough i think this also applies to collecting as well!
AA folks say a lot of things, mostly about how sorry they are about the destructive results of their addictive behavior. I make no apologies for my collecting "habits."
jcuffe6240 Wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many of the same orders do you guys like to collect? Do you usually have multiples of the same order? Why do that?
There are any number of reasons why someone would have multiple copies of one kind of award - numerous "Types," "Variations" and "Sub-variations" of most orders, for one. Another could be that you just really like certain awards a great deal more than others (e.g. there is a forum member who has well over 100 Orders of the Red Star because he thinks they are amazing). I have several of those myself because they are easy to come by and have several different variations including a "dublikat", one awarded for Korean War actions and another for service in the Afghanistan War.
Others just like certain awards - say Bravery Medals - associated with particular battles (e.g. Stalingrad) or for a particular type of soldier (e.g. snipers).
I focus on KGB (law enforcement and the judicial branch in general) and education-related badges. At the same time, I endeavor to have at least one example of every kind of award military and civilians were able to get - within reason of price, of course - just to have as complete a collection as possible. But these are just like the old stamp collecting booklets you could get at the post office with all the types of available stamps and you would apply the real stamp over the picture until you completed each page. My approach to the awards outside of my specialty is not that simplistic, but i think you get the point.
You may also get many copies of the same kind of medal if your thing is same person groups.
When it comes to security service (Cheka-KGB), MVD awards, excellence in education and graduation badges, I endeavor to collect as many as I can find and/or afford. For example, there are at least three different variations of the famous "Honored Chekist" (one of the non-literal translations) KGB badge, and though I have two, I'm not actively seeking out the others because of the price - but everybody thinks and collects differently and for different reasons. There can be no pigeon-holing of anyone as a collector.
The list of reasons why is much longer than this (and this is plenty long enough), but I hope you can see why now. But the main one is what you may come to find out since you are just starting, unless you've found your main focus already (it took me many years to force myself down to a workable set of guidelines), you will probably end up with multiple copies of some medals. And why not? They are each a separate part of history given to (in most cases) two different people for two different sets of reasons.
You'll see what I'm talking about eventually.
Phillip
Orders and documents - medals73 - 12-12-2010
Some collectors are type collectors, seeking one medal of each type (by whatever is the prevailing typology of the moment). The analogy to stamp collectors, filling up blank spaces in their albums, is not inappropriate.
Others are like Smaug in The Hobbit, amassing great mounds of identical awards (tens of thousands of Victory over Germany medals?) and wallowing about in them.
I can understand both styles of collecting, but my approach focuses on the person and the history behind the awards (which then makes each one unique) and, with its reliance on research, has shoved much of my Soviet collecting up against a brick wall of late. With problems in getting research and even greater problems in getting translations of that research, you can find yourself facing pretty stacks of expensive paper that you cannot read.
This has led me to follow a strategy that focuses on groups. And this means many duplicates, as person "A" may have things that duplicate the medals of person "B". But their stories are different. Minor themes emerge, and one of mine has been getting researched gallantry groups with each of the WWII campaign medals.
Without research, a Red Star (type 3, McD&S) 3763323 would be no more than that. With research, it becomes an award to a Senior Lieutenant (later Colonel) military advisor (probably in armor) serving in Afghanistan (where he may have died). The research is as yet untranslated, so I can say no more, but even that tiny bit of information transforms what (for me) is a mere "thing" into an interesting piece of history.
Orders and documents - ph3s - 12-12-2010
As for me I collect like Phillip, one of each. But if the awards in group and I can afford it I wouldn't pass by. For instance I have 3 Order Of October Revolution, but 2 of them in small groups, 4 mounts ago I start to collect Red Stars, so now I have 11 standalone RSs different type and variations and way to go with this idea.
Jump in, after a couple of mounts you will find yours
But try to study before you jump on something big. Labour awards are cool and there are not many good fakes of basic ones.
Orders and documents - medals73 - 12-12-2010
The problem with labor awards (and I love them too) is that except for documented early ones, research has not been possible. It is unclear whether that is from a lack of looking and a pro-military bias or because the sources are unavailable.