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+---- Thread: Patriotic War. (/Thread-Patriotic-War)
Patriotic War. - Chris - 08-19-2002
I read PD's book wrong..it's not the width sideways but from face on ..they are thinner.
It is a small type for sure.
Just like PD's book said the Concave version and the "small" version are very similar.
I found this one today when I examined a group!!! (a concave)
A concave and a "small" attached
Chris
Patriotic War. - McLenin - 08-20-2002
I do think this one is OK, but it has had a hell of a time! 2 of the star arms are replaced, as seen under a black light (12 and 4 o’clock). The ring is repaired, but quite a nice and old job. I think the hammer and sickle is a replacement AND it has bent, but it is not glued down and wobbles a bit. But look a the wear on the edge of the rayed star, and there was a evidence of old dust in the back when I got it.
McL
Patriotic War. - Chris - 08-20-2002
McL
That's seen a few scraps, whats the Number on it?
Chris
Patriotic War. - McLenin - 08-20-2002
8936 which would be late 1942/ early 1943... Stalingrad???
Patriotic War. - Chris - 08-20-2002
McL
Leningrad and Moscow raged.......Stalingrad and a million other places where small and large actions took place.
Nice thought though.
I think Ed would be the one to answer this if you asked him to reseach it.
Chris
Patriotic War. - McLenin - 08-20-2002
Hi Chris
Don't worry. I know all about Ed's research capabilities! :)
Of course you are right about the possible location. I might get it looked up sometime.
McL
Patriotic War. - Nota Bene - 09-29-2002
Hi Everyone,
I have sold one of those with this description:
" This order was instituted on May 20, 1942 and awarded for specific acts of courage during WWII. Made of silver and red/white enamels. This piece is a very unusual variation with brass hammer and sickle attached to the order with bendable wires. So far nobody knows exactly the reason for this modification. Most collectors believe that this is a replacement for the original gold piece, I think that this may well be a production variation. In either case this is a very unusual piece. Serial number is 269895, deeply concave. Very minor wear with perfect original enamel, nice patina."
Naturally I have received some questions about it, some of which were not very polite to say the least. Well, I am saying in my description that it "may" be a production variation, but as a matter of fact this seems to be the most predominant theory amongst the collectors and dealers in Russia. Over the years I have heard from many of them, including from my mint source, that during the war, apparently in 1942-1943, many of those awards were assembled by different factories, including the Chelyabinsk Tractor Factory. This is explained by huge demand for them. Brass plated H&S were used in stead of the original gold ones when they were short of them.
Alexei
Patriotic War. - Eugene - 09-30-2002
Alexei,
I’ve heard of this “Chelyabinsk Tractor Factory” theory. However, it’s not supported by any documents. As far as I know, the most serious collectors and researches in Russia do not support this theory either. There is just no evidence. If you compare scan posted by me a few months early, you will notice big difference in the quality of the job. There were noticed different types and variations of OPW 1st and 2nd classes with replaced H&S. The different time intervals (serial numbers) of issue as well as different quality of the job allow to say no way these orders were manufactured at the mint. Durov, who has access to documents regarding manufacturaning of soviet awards, expressed the same opinion. The explanation is simple: when H&S were detached (intentionally or not) the easiest way was to replace them by piece from uniform star.
Patriotic War. - Nota Bene - 10-01-2002
Eugene,
I’ve read your post, and I know the conventional theory. Durov is known as skeptic, and unless he sees a document with three official seals he wouldn’t believe it. It’s a good quality when you are writing a book, but since we don’t have any facts we might as well speculate. I think the conventional theory doesn’t take into account several minor aspects:
a) If you try (I just did) to insert a brass H&S into the holes of the OGPW it doesn’t fit. If you try to file the bendable wires on the brass H&S to make them thinner they will just break before you can bend them again. You need a special high speed (not to damage the enamel) thin drill bit to remove broken original rivets, and a drill press to avoid breaking the bit. How many soldiers during the war had access to such equipment? Maybe some at specialized shops to repair damaged equipment;
b) After the war award repairs were usually handled by jewelers, so how come jewelers all over the country used the same technique? Besides in more recent times it was very hard to find a hat badge with removable H&S to use as a replacement, it would probably be easier to make a replacement from scratch.
The unconventional theory on the contrary explains it all perfectly. There was a large demand for OGPWs, and they were assembled by different factories, so when they ran out of gold H&S they used brass replacements. After all it’s a well known fact, that back then awards were made/assembled not only by mints.
I realize of course that this is just a theory, and I can’t prove any of that. So I felt uncomfortable selling this piece, and will send it to the buyer for free.
Alexei
Patriotic War. - Mozzabloke - 10-02-2002
Alexei,
Its good of you to offer to not charge the buyer. However I do not think you have mislead anyone in any way and as such should not feel guilty about charging the auction price. After all nobody had to bid on this item, they made the choice.
Just my opinion.
Mark