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+------ Thread: Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. (/Thread-Halhingol-Battle-Commemorative-Badge)
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - Nota Bene - 12-27-2005
Guys,
I was looking through my books, and the only source with some decent pictures I was able to find was the new Battushig book.
Here's his T1 badge, notice the silvered back, brass horseman and text, and thick screwpost.
and here's a T2 with silvered back, guilded "rope" and small screwplate.
Alexei
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - Christophe - 12-27-2005
Alexei,
Have you seen the pics of Dietrich Herfurth's catalog ? What do you think of them ?
Cheers.
Ch.
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - Nota Bene - 12-27-2005
Guys,
Here are three of the T1 variations compared. I could not do better scans given the size limits, so I will have to comment.
Left to right:
thick layer of silver, thick silver plated letters, thin screwpost, silvered back, back is more detailed;
very thin layer of silver with only traces of it left on the horseman, thick letters with faint traces of silver, thick screwpost, silvered back, back is less detailed;
very faint traces of silver on the horseman, thin letters without any traces of silver, thin screwpost, not traces of silver on the back, back is more detailed.
All three have minor differences in the details of the horseman and hills.
Alexei
Christophe,
I don't have his new book yet. In the old one he only has a b/w front picture of the T2.
Alexei
Christophe Wrote:Alexei,
Have you seen the pics of Dietrich Herfurth's catalog ? What do you think of them ?
Cheers.
Ch.
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - Christophe - 12-27-2005
Alexei,
If this can help...
1st type of reverse.
2nd type of reverse.
And the corresponding caption / text (in fact, does not help a lot...).
If the pics are not good enough, I can try to do better...
Ch.
Pic : Dietrich Herfurth - Soviet Awards - 4th edition - 2004
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - desantnik - 12-28-2005
OK - you learn something new everyday. So, the original piece that began this discussion seems to most resemble the frame #31 variety since it has a silver, smooth backing. The gold rope must have worn off. In a PM, Alexei mentioned there is solid, honest wear on this piece that is not visible in the reduced size scans. This is an example of why I feel much more comfortable touching a piece before making a call.
I have also seen a semi-mirrored reverse that doesn't seem to have been catalogued, alas I don't have a photo.
Would everyone agree the screwback plate is a replacement? I've never seen one of these on anything other than a suspension order or medal, not on a badge.
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - Nota Bene - 12-28-2005
Christophe,
I do not know for sure, but I believe that T2 was only manufactured by the mint, so the screwplate is probably not original to this badge and would most likely correspond to a T1 with thick screwpost.
Desantnik,
I won't :)
I have seen badges with old marks on the back (scratches and patina) that correspond to a large screwplate. They could be original to the badges or old replacements. I don't have any proof one way or the other, but I don't see why, say by the end of production period, the mint couldn't have switched to a common larger size screwplate.
Alexei
desantnik Wrote:Would everyone agree the screwback plate is a replacement? I've never seen one of these on anything other than a suspension order or medal, not on a badge.
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - dannybou - 12-28-2005
desantnik Wrote:OK - you learn something new everyday. So, the original piece that began this discussion seems to most resemble the frame #31 variety since it has a silver, smooth backing. The gold rope must have worn off. In a PM, Alexei mentioned there is solid, honest wear on this piece that is not visible in the reduced size scans. This is an example of why I feel much more comfortable touching a piece before making a call.
I have also seen a semi-mirrored reverse that doesn't seem to have been catalogued, alas I don't have a photo.
Would everyone agree the screwback plate is a replacement? I've never seen one of these on anything other than a suspension order or medal, not on a badge.
Paul
On another well known reputable dealer's site, there is a Halhingol badge for sale, just like mine. The screwnut appears to be just like mine. It is advertised as being an original screwnut.
After doing more searching I am convinced that not only is the badge authentic, but so is the nut. I found another website which has a badge like the one in post 1 with what appears to be the same screwnut.
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - desantnik - 12-28-2005
All right. I'm sold. Nice (rare?!) badge!
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - Dolf - 12-28-2005
dannybou Wrote:Paul
On another well known reputable dealer's site, there is a Halhingol badge for sale, just like mine. The screwnut appears to be just like mine. It is advertised as being an original screwnut. If you want the dealer's website, I can PM it to you.
Danny,
That dealer you PMed me, from what I've read and heard here and there, doesn't seem to me as trustworthy as you say, as if my memory isn't playing tricks on me I believe he already had one or two suspicious pieces for sale on his site, which I think were even discussed here on the Forum.
Anyway, the fact he has that piece for sale doesn't guarantee 100% that the whole thing is 100% authentic.
On the other hand, the fact that Alexei guarantees that your Badge is authentic, that is of course completely different!
Anyway, can you please confirm if this is the Badge that Alexei describes on his site as: "... "flat back" reverse, screwplate is not original, but old, has a very small enamel chip at 8 o'clock (hardly noticeable), very minor wear traces, XF+ condition... "
Well, anyway I'm glad you're happy with it, after all that's what counts.
dannybou Wrote:Guys
........................................................................................................
The badge weighs 15.5gr and measures 42.5mm from the flag pole to the bottom of the badge. The screwnut weighs in at 6.8gr and measures 25mm.
........................................................................................................
Danny,
Comparing weight and measures of your Badge with my flat-reverse Badge:
My flat-reverse Badge weights 16,15gr (without the screwnut)
The screwnut alone weights 3,15gr
The Badge measures 42,68mm from the flag pole to the bottom of the Badge (approximately to the letter H, before the I)
The diameter of the Badge, from side to side (left-right) is 37,45mm
The diameter of the screwnut alone is 18,34mm
Danny, Alexei, Desantnik, Jan, all involved on this superb debate:
I've sent both pics of Danny's Badge (the two scans and the two digital camera pictures) to a Mongolian friend of mine, the best expert I know about Mongolian awards.
I'm pasting below part of his reply with his opinions from the pics posted here by Danny:
"[COLOR="Blue"]Hi Dolf,
I examined the fotos. I think the badges are genuine. You are right about the suspissious color of the medals.
........................................................................................................
Halhingol medals are quite fragile and tend to go broken quite quickly.
Mostly the red enamel is very fragile. I know people from the black market who repair the damage by putting nail polish, some quite well. But it is easy to identify by pinching it with the needle. The enamel is very hard material. The nail polish even after getting hard is soft enough to be pinced by a needle.
Recently, I saw a Halhingol medal repaired by the badge company in Mongolia.
They remove all the enamel from the medal and put new enamel.
Unfortunately, they do not have old-style so called hot enamel. They have only "cold" enamel. One of Halhingols in your foto looks very artificial. I am sure it was repaired in the badge factory.
The metal part is genuine.
........................................................................................................
Your Halhingol is 100 percent genuine and the screwnut is the genuine
of Halhingol.
The other two Monetny dvor screwnuts are genuine, but not from Halhingol.
They are from M 45.1, best herder badge. J 02. Half silver.
.......................................................................................................[/COLOR]"
My friend uses the plural (BadgeS, ScrewnutS, etc) because I guess he didn't clearly understand that all four pictures posted by Danny were from the same piece.
At the end when he says that the screwnut on Danny's Badge is from M 45.1, he refers to Herfurth Catalogue 4th edition, and J 02 is a reference to Dr. Battushig's book.
Anyway, his opinions match my own opinions about this particular piece, as mentioned before.
So I'm very glad I've learned so much (even thought I've still much more to learn and so far I only know the visible head of the iceberg on this matter!) and made such progress since I joined the Forum, with the help of all Forum experts and other members, and thanks to this kind of serious debate.
Again thank you very much to all involved on this very interesting discussion.
Best,
Dolf
Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge. - dannybou - 12-28-2005
Dolf, if you friend refers to the "neon" colours in the first pictures, as the ones with replaced enamel, then he shouldn't. There is no neon colours. None. It is red and made of hot enamel. He is saying that replacement enamel would be made of cold enamel if I am reading him correctly?
Now the other dealer, be it reputable or not as much so as others, you mentionned, has the same badge as the one I (humm.... my wife :)) purchased from Alexei with the same screwnut. So my point was would two of these badges be sold by dealers? What are the odds of that? Plus I found the same badge with what appears to be the same screwnut on another badge website (PM me for the link). A third source? What are the odds on that? I guess the best way for the experts to see the badge would be to handle it themselves instead of viewing photographs. I am not an expert, far from it but I am convinced at 110% that this badge is authentic and convinced at 80% that the screwnut is authentic as well. As Alexei mentionned there are quite a number of variations out there. Superb discussion indeed.