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+----- Thread: Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined (/Thread-Soviet-Russian-Medal-collecting-being-ruined)
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - Henry Sakaida - 03-01-2011
I just came back from a large military show. To protect myself, I will not mention the show nor the location or any dealers. The show was well attended, strictly military and military-related. More than half the dealers were German/Nazi militaria dealers. And IMHO, half the stuff were of questionable authenticity, fakes, copies, and/or restrikes. One dealer who was selling "unissued" SS cuff titles, had a disclaimer on this table: "We are not the experts, you are."
In talking with alot of collectors on fakes, I learned alot. Alot of high end collectibles are being faked in China. The Chinese are making copies of high end Soviet orders and medals, as well as German/Nazi medals.
But it doesn't stop there. They are also making superb and hard-to-detect copies of US Morgan and Peace silver dollars, gold coins, and gold bars. When counterfeiting gold medals and coins, the base metal is tungsten, which has almost the same weight as real gold, and can be gold-plated. They have been selling "gold" coins and bullion bars on ebay. You have to be nuts to buy such items from dealers.
The word in the US coin collectors world is that Chinese copies is destroying the coin collecting hobby all over the world. They have master craftsmen who can produce near perfect or perfect copies. Tourists in China think they are buying real antiques in shops when almost all of them are fake. The government doesn't care. Best place to unload fakes? Online auction.
But the biggest shock of all came when I talked with a guy waiting at the airport, who was going home. I told him about a certain dealer there who was selling Nazi medals for $$$$$$$$. He took me aside and said, "I used to work for him. Not all of his stuff is real. He gets them made in Israel by a master jeweler and they are perfect copies. He will melt down real German medals to get the correct silver/gold content.
How do you protect yourself? Simple. Do business with only the people you trust, and study your specialty! Know how the fakers do it, real vs fake patina, etc. If you plan to spend serious money, you better become an expert! Anyone can become an expert...all you have to do is study, study, and study.
Good luck out there.
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - deValcourt - 03-01-2011
Thank you Henry. Excellent words of wisdom.:thumbsup
Phillip
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - pastfinder - 03-01-2011
Henry,
Many thanks for your information (I was unaware of the coins). My father and I have been collecting militaria since I can remember (25 years for my case) and the volume of fakes in even the field of web gear has made the hobby less enjoyable. At this point we focus on more recent conflicts (first Gulf War), or specialty pieces such as trench art from the two World Wars or the person to person sales from people we can trust who buy the items in the area. If we buy a piece of militaria from the Vietnam era purchased at a yard sale in the Sandhills of North Carolina, we are fairly confident the item is legitimate.
Unfortunately, I think anything third reich at this point is fake on the market aside from getting items directly from the veterans who brought them back. This is sadly supply and demand at its finest.
Frank
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - Eryk - 03-01-2011
Henry Sakaida Wrote:One dealer who was selling "unissued" SS cuff titles, had a disclaimer on this table: "We are not the experts, you are."
That's quite the disclaimer. Translates to "Buyer beware. Of me!" Doesn't seem like the best sales strategy. Thanks Henry, as always.
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - Esteban_cool - 03-01-2011
Eryk Wrote:That's quite the disclaimer. Translates to "Buyer beware. Of me!" Doesn't seem like the best sales strategy. Thanks Henry, as always.
I agree. We must never underestimate stupidity.
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - EricFG - 03-02-2011
Henry Sakaida Wrote:But the biggest shock of all came when I talked with a guy waiting at the airport, who was going home. I told him about a certain dealer there who was selling Nazi medals for $$$$$$$$. He took me aside and said, "I used to work for him. Not all of his stuff is real. He gets them made in Israel by a master jeweler and they are perfect copies. He will melt down real German medals to get the correct silver/gold content..This part I don't get. There was very little silver in TR badges. OK, maybe the Iron Cross rims were silver and they are hugely collectible but it's not an analysis of that content that usually makes or breaks a question of authenticity; it's generally maker's marks or a specific maker's design on the iron core that signals good or no. Maybe when we get to Knight's Cross oakleaves the silver content issue might be relevent but even then most experts know all the legitimat die strikes.
And as far as gold goes the only gold I know of, off the top of my head, used in the TR was plating on a very few awards. And again MMs, pins, hinges, catches, rivets...the list goes on, are what experts look at when identifying fakes.
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - Henry Sakaida - 03-02-2011
I was indeed referring to the KC with oakleaves/swords, etc.
When I was in high school back in 1966, I started collecting German medals!
I bought a KC with oakleaves/swords for $40 and thought, WOW!!! A few years later, I found out that it was a restrike. I had taken me forever to save up $40! After that, I was so disappointed, I stopped collecting. All the EKIIs and EKIs I had were restrikes. The SS cuff titles were repros. I got burned because I was too young, too eager, and unsophisticated.
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - deValcourt - 03-03-2011
The way I'm seeing it, no matter what a person collects, he or she is going to get burned by a fake or conman (whether knowingly or from ignorance of his own copies).
Anyone ever notice the semantics? Once something has been copied to the extreme and nobody believes they will find a real "thingy" anymore, it becomes a "novelty." Of course in our world, they call them "restrikes."
I'll have to post the latest generation of KGB badge copies. Multiple pieces, precise design - the only instant giveaway is the "enamel" that fills the ribbons. I'll actually wear the newest copies on my sports coats at work because they look good enough and I don't have to worry about damaging the originals - sort of like the "wearing" or "walking out" copies of the HSU and HSL stars that recipients usually had made.:)
Phillip
Soviet/Russian Medal collecting being ruined - Adlerfan - 04-17-2011
That is why it is important to become as educated as possible. Nothing beats a strong knowledge of any subject. That is what places like this are for.