admiral of the soviet union M1945

charlet · 02-06-2006, 03:51 PM

hello Gentlemen, here's a huge group of a jacket and visor cap for sale, I've been allowed to photograph in details in Paris.
An enormous curiosity! and real pleasure to see and touch!

button detail
front detail
cuff detail
the whole back
star visor cap
seal state detail
whole cuff detail
whole set front!
laurel leaves on visor cap
cuff inside lining
still the cuff embroidery
detail of thick cloth
visor cap inside button
general view of cap and breast (medals are pure decoration)
inside leather sweatband
still fascinated by the cuff embroidery
visor cap laurel leave with the chin cord
the whole shoulder board
visor embroidery and old leather
another detail of the state seal
another collar embroidery detail
collar again
detail of shoulder board button , next to collar
the visor cap
the big star (sorry I didn't thought to shoot it from sideview)
the cuff embroidery in a general view
visor cap again
a detail of gold thread for cuff

I'm sorry for this huge post, but it has been a unique occasion to see from very near such a piece...

I tried to do macroscopic pics of embroidery, these are the previous pics in bigger scale.
The guy having this tunic thinks about selling it, I don't have any interest in this!

charlet · 02-06-2006, 04:08 PM

another general view with daylight

slava1stclass · 02-06-2006, 04:15 PM

Charlet,

What is the asking price?

Regards,

slava1stclass

DougD · 02-06-2006, 06:21 PM

This uniform has been around awhile in a Paris shop with a seller who is less than credible. It is (in my opinion) a copy. Here is why i think that:

First,and greatest, look at the embroidered cuff anchors. They face the wrong direction; the bottom of the anchor should face the REAR of the cuff (all M1945 admirals had this), not the front. This is a pretty major error on the uniform of the head of the navy. Second there is a major lack of detail in the collar and cuff embroidery (there should be sequins going across the embroidery, not just the edgings). The embroidery also has in my eyes, almost no tarnishing; why? Perhaps it was pretty recent.

As for the collar embroidery, it is a bit too large, lacking the space between the bottom of the leafs and the stiching to connect the collar to the tunic itself.

The shoulderboards do not fit the tunic; they are too long.They are probably original though (see my thesis below).

The orders on the right breast do not align to known photos of Kuznetsov wearing this tunic; the third order should allign above the fourth button on the right side; here it is clearly next to the button, making it too low in comparison to original photos. Order #2 on the right breast should come clearly between buttons 2 and three ( again, clear in original photos), while here its clearly below button 3. Also, the three orders are spaced too far apart; in the original photos of Kuznetsov wearing this tunic they have almost no space between them.

The cap is clearly later, circa 1950's (look at the wide rounded brim, the bright cellon type embroidery, again not the tarnished real gold).

I think (and I stress I think) that this is a real M1945 admirals tunic that has had the embroidery replaced with a modern copy of Kuznetsovs M1945 style (along with original era boards).This was done with a well known published M1945 Marshals uniform, so it can and has been done.

While Kuznetsov probably had more than one of these uniforms, I really do not think this is one of them and would not advise any of my clients to get it. I am sure there are those who disagree, and that is why I posted what would be my concerns instead of just saying that I did not like it. To each his own, but that is my take, and only mine. I know I am nitpicking in parts, but knowing what they can do to copy high end orders, I know that high end uniforms can not escape.

DougD
ps- the marshals star would not be worn on this uniform; did not come out for Admirals of the Fleet of the USSR until 1955 ( i think that date is right).

charlet · 02-06-2006, 07:14 PM

so the visor cap would be legit ?

DougD · 02-06-2006, 08:02 PM

I am not sure, but I would bet against it. Usually one bad item spoils the rest i my looking at things.

DD

charlet · 02-06-2006, 08:18 PM

ok. I'll look deeply in your book Doug; but yet the gold thread used is the same than in your book; it is frightening if we can consider that they use orginal gold thread?

DougD · 02-06-2006, 08:22 PM

Sebastian,

You should draw your own conclusions on this unioform, I simply ladi out my concerns and reasons i am sceptical of it. As for the thread, i am not sure it is the same as that used in the 1945 uniforms, it might simply be similar. With the effort they are making for fake orders, it should not be supsrising thay are trying high end uniforms and coming pretty close.

DD

charlet · 02-06-2006, 08:47 PM

ok, thanks a lot for the input Doug (please don't believe I try to beat yours skills ;) )

DougD · 02-06-2006, 08:52 PM

Sebastian, not a problem, just observations by me. UNiforms are not as easy to set rules for as medals -orders.

DD

02-06-2006, 06:21 PM	#4
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 51 Posts: 2,060	uniform This uniform has been around awhile in a Paris shop with a seller who is less than credible. It is (in my opinion) a copy. Here is why i think that: First,and greatest, look at the embroidered cuff anchors. They face the wrong direction; the bottom of the anchor should face the REAR of the cuff (all M1945 admirals had this), not the front. This is a pretty major error on the uniform of the head of the navy. Second there is a major lack of detail in the collar and cuff embroidery (there should be sequins going across the embroidery, not just the edgings). The embroidery also has in my eyes, almost no tarnishing; why? Perhaps it was pretty recent. As for the collar embroidery, it is a bit too large, lacking the space between the bottom of the leafs and the stiching to connect the collar to the tunic itself. The shoulderboards do not fit the tunic; they are too long.They are probably original though (see my thesis below). The orders on the right breast do not align to known photos of Kuznetsov wearing this tunic; the third order should allign above the fourth button on the right side; here it is clearly next to the button, making it too low in comparison to original photos. Order #2 on the right breast should come clearly between buttons 2 and three ( again, clear in original photos), while here its clearly below button 3. Also, the three orders are spaced too far apart; in the original photos of Kuznetsov wearing this tunic they have almost no space between them. The cap is clearly later, circa 1950's (look at the wide rounded brim, the bright cellon type embroidery, again not the tarnished real gold). I think (and I stress I think) that this is a real M1945 admirals tunic that has had the embroidery replaced with a modern copy of Kuznetsovs M1945 style (along with original era boards).This was done with a well known published M1945 Marshals uniform, so it can and has been done. While Kuznetsov probably had more than one of these uniforms, I really do not think this is one of them and would not advise any of my clients to get it. I am sure there are those who disagree, and that is why I posted what would be my concerns instead of just saying that I did not like it. To each his own, but that is my take, and only mine. I know I am nitpicking in parts, but knowing what they can do to copy high end orders, I know that high end uniforms can not escape. DougD ps- the marshals star would not be worn on this uniform; did not come out for Admirals of the Fleet of the USSR until 1955 ( i think that date is right).

02-06-2006, 07:14 PM	#5
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	so the visor cap would be legit ? __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

02-06-2006, 08:02 PM	#6
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 51 Posts: 2,060	cap I am not sure, but I would bet against it. Usually one bad item spoils the rest i my looking at things. DD

02-06-2006, 08:18 PM	#7
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	ok. I'll look deeply in your book Doug; but yet the gold thread used is the same than in your book; it is frightening if we can consider that they use orginal gold thread? __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

02-06-2006, 08:22 PM	#8
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 51 Posts: 2,060	thread Sebastian, You should draw your own conclusions on this unioform, I simply ladi out my concerns and reasons i am sceptical of it. As for the thread, i am not sure it is the same as that used in the 1945 uniforms, it might simply be similar. With the effort they are making for fake orders, it should not be supsrising thay are trying high end uniforms and coming pretty close. DD

02-06-2006, 04:15 PM	#3
slava1stclass Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 838	Charlet, What is the asking price? Regards, slava1stclass

02-06-2006, 08:47 PM	#9
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	ok, thanks a lot for the input Doug (please don't believe I try to beat yours skills ;) ) __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

02-06-2006, 08:52 PM	#10
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 51 Posts: 2,060	tunic Sebastian, not a problem, just observations by me. UNiforms are not as easy to set rules for as medals -orders. DD

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
M1945 Victory Parade Admiral	slava1stclass	Naval Uniforms And Insignia	2	03-09-2007 03:22 PM
Heroes Of The U.S.S.R.	Tal Inbar	Reference Books And Catalogues	6	09-17-2006 07:27 AM