VERY RARE type of NKVD General Uniform

[new world]

This was posted by a member on German Forum.

This is supposedly the rarest of the rare of uniforms - NKVD general with blue zig-zags on the shoulder boards.

Only few of these were ever fr sale.

Doug, please add more info as this is in your alley!

William

[DougD]

Well, first, all NKVD generals ( real ones) are rare; they don't often come in at all. Those with the "wave" stripes are even rarer still ( see this shot of the parade M1943 NKVD general). I have only had in 2, with a possible third on the way.

This tunic that Bill was smart enough to grab is very rare as it is a field NKVD general; rarer than a service M1943, not as rare as a parade one, but still, I have never seen another (there is one in the shalito large book, but it is later war).

The wave has yet to be solved; was it for all NKVD generals, but just used in 1943-1944, or is it for Generals of the NKGB. Its is still under debate.

DougD

[vvadim]

Well, first, all NKVD generals ( real ones) are rare; they don't often come in at all. Those with the "wave" stripes are even rarer still ( see this shot of the parade M1943 NKVD general). I have only had in 2, with a possible third on the way.

You confusing generals of NKVD troops and commissars of state security.
On the first photograph is everyday tunic (kitel) with shoulder boards of COMMISSAR of state security of 3rd rank (two stars represents 3rd rank) and on the second photograph is parade dress (mundir) of GENERAL of NKVD troops with wrong shoulder boards of COMMISSAR of state security. Because of wrong shoulder boards. it is impossible to say what troops (i.e. internal troops, prisoner convoy troops, troops for guarding railroads, troops for guarding manufacturing plants, troops of government communications etc.)
The only thing you can tell for sure it’s not frontier troops.

This tunic that Bill was smart enough to grab is very rare as it is a field NKVD
general; rarer than a service M1943, not as rare as a parade one, but still, I have never seen another (there is one in the shalito large book, but it is later war).

What makes it field ? This is regular everyday tunic.

The wave has yet to be solved; was it for all NKVD generals, but just used in 1943-1944, or is it for Generals of the NKGB. Its is still under debate.

Under debate by who?
As per NKVD order № 126 from 18 February 1943 wave green double breasted mundirs were for generals of all NKVD troops. Single breasted steel grey mundirs were for top commanding personal of state security (GUGB).
On April 14 1943 NKVD were divided once again into two commissariats (NKVD and NKGB) and on April 18 1943 kontrintelegense GUKR “Smersh” was transferred to NKO (People’s commissariat of defense) and intelligence of the navy UKR “Smersh” to the NKVMF (People’s commissariat of the navy), but they continue to were GUGB uniforms.
Confusion may come that a lot of people just received new uniforms and get transferred to different divisions and departments, but continue to wear them, because nobody will gave them new appropriate one until periods designated for uniform is expired.

That all was changed on July 6 1945. I was trying to attach a copy of original orders, but it was saing file is too large. File is 116k and I can attach only 50k, but it's unreadable then.

By the way belt is wrong tooooo. It’s for GUGB not for the NKVD troops.

[DougD]

Vadim,

I have seen both NKVD and NKGB generals / commissars with the wave stripes; knowing what the regulations said does not mean they were followed in reality, thats sort of why we have forums like this to see what actually came about. I am well aware of how the regulations changed in 1945, having had an exmple of an M1945 troops NKVD general too. Also, the belt is correct for both NKVD troops and NKGB until the 1945 change. As you know regulations were not 100% adhered too and the boards were mixed for both NKVD and NKGB, thus no clear line.

Border Guards would have been same, but with green piping, as I am sure you know.

The field tunic is field because of the subdued boards; yes it has the service buttons, not green, but calling it field is not incorrect. Thank you for pointing this out though.

As for debate, that is why we are here, to discuss these thing. Not everyone comes to the forum knowing everything ( though some seem to).

Thank you for the lesson on the NKVD, but I did know these things before you arrived. Thanks again for the refresher course.

DougD

[vvadim]

Doug do not get irritated so quickly.

Your and your friend making the book and I can not wait to see it. But I hope you do not want to make laughing matter like Laslo Bekesi or book with annoying “discrepancies” like David.
This is only reason why I’m here.
Bottom line is, on yours uniform WRONG shoulder boards.
Under no circumstances in million years such shoulder boards could be on this uniform.

With the same successes you can attache navy admiral or any other shoulder boards.

You can delete this massage or just ask and I never going to write to this forum again.
Otherwise:

Military rank of COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY existed, equal to the military rank of GENERAL-MAJOR or REAR-ADMIRAL.

In ALL documents military personal listed with military ranks they have. When subordinates address people with such rank (or any rank for that matter) they call them :” Comrade COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY”, or :”Comrade GENERAL-MAJOR”, or :”Comrade REAR-ADMIRAL”.

These people may hold different positions in different departments.

Some examples to illustrate.

Deconozov V.I. - 2 December 1938 was promoted to the rank of COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY of 3rd rank wile he was head of section of GUGB, then in 1939 he was transferred to commissariat of foreign affairs, and wile retaining his military rank of COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY of 3rd rank served as ambassador in Germany until JULY 1941. (after outbreak of the war he along with other embassy personal was “shipped” through Turkey back to Russia) and he served as deputy of People’s commissar of foreign affairs.
He was given appropriate diplomatic rank only in august of 1943. Following your logic he should be wearing diplomatic uniforms with GUGB insignia.

Belskiy L.I. COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY of 2rd rank.
Head of Soviet militia (GURKM) since 1935. Following you logic he should be wearing militia uniform with GUGB insignia.

Frinovsky M.I. – komkor in 1935, by 1938 Komandarm of the 1st rank.
(Please mind that no such rank as komkor of frontier troops or general-major of NKVD troops ever existed.) Rank was just general-xxxxx or komkor regardless of whether it’s army or NKVD.) Then he was transferred as a head of Commissariat of the NAVY. While retaining his rank he was wearing NAVY uniform. Following you logic he should be wearing NAVY uniform with GUGB insignia.


NKVD personal was transferred from one department to another and they may(or may not) retain GUGB military rank, BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES they can mix uniform and insignia from different departments. You have to understand that NKVD troops it’s different department of NKVD, the same like militia or fire department or 39 other departments and it’s impossible to wear one insignia with other uniform. Not in million years.

Once again do not get irritated so quickly. Read your own message bellow:

As for debate, that is why we are here, to discuss these thing. Not everyone comes to the forum knowing everything ( though some seem to).

Thank you for the lesson on the NKVD, but I did know these things before you arrived. Thanks again for the refresher course.

You welcome

Vadim

P.S. Belt is wrong tooooo.

[DougD]

Thank you for your concern about the book. Since you are not part of the book, please do not worry anymore about it. When you publish yours, I am sure it will be done very well.If our book does not meet your approval please do not purchase it.

Also, please do not address me and ask me not to get irritated, etc. I have no problem discussing these subjects with you, but i do not repsond well to your very particular style. When I ask you to watch your behavior and posting style it is in my position as moderator, nothing more.

I will state my opinion again; the wave boards were for both NKGB/GUGB and NKVD troops. I know what different branches the NKVD had ( though I am not the expert, nor are you, that Shawn Caza is). I also know the regulation that (for parade uniforms) the wave boards were for GUGB/NKGB 'grey" single breasted tunic ( as I had one of these too). It is my contention that the boards, which are original to the tunic, are not 100% specific in practice to the GUGB/NKGB. I understand you disagree and have your reasons and I have mine. If you can't repsect mine, or others who disagree with you, then this is not the place for you. I will not stop you from posting as long as the posts meet this forums guidlines, but as moderator I ask you to reread the post (forum rules) about respecting others opinions, even if they disagree with yours. You may be 100% convinced you are correct, but that is not an excuse to not respect others.

Maybe I am incorrect; maybe the boards were for NKGB but also used by commissars who went on to be troop generals in the NKVD and kept the boards; however, I will stand by that the boards are original to the tunic. There is still alot to be learned and it will be many years before we figure it all out. If we knew everything now, this hobby would be no fun at all.

Also, capitalization of your words implies yelling. Please avoid as this is not what this forum is about.

You have stated that the belt is wrong twice. Fine. I disagree with you, the belt is fine for this uniform, actually it is for this uniform. Simply repeating that I am wrong does not bolster your argument. This point we also disagrre on. I think that you need to accept, that on these two points, we disagree. I will no longer debate these points with you, but will ask that you please respect the way the forum opperates.

Thank You.
DougD
Moderator

[Commissar]

Haha, uniforms can cause so many problems and start so many fights. :D Haha. Luckily they are never very serious. :P But that is a very fine uniform, the only ones I spot on E seem to be reproductions from singapore...lame.

[deValcourt]

I agree with the others that this is a really nice example - right down to the cloth stars on the shoulder boards.:thumbsup

Doug, have the years provided any new information regarding whether these were for NKVD or NKGB? (I'm not trying to stir up anything and remember my ignorance of cloth. I just know what I like and what piques my interest.:D)

Phillip

[DougD]

The wave on the board is for Commissars NKGB by regulation.

[deValcourt]

Originally Posted by DougD

The wave on the board is for Commissars NKGB by regulation.

Not surprisingly, that's what I was hoping. Thanks.:thumbsup

Phillip