"Sükhbaatar" Order.

[new world]

Dolf, Jan,

You could be right after all, in fact that Mongolian government introduced new Sukhe Bator order. I just find it odd - Sukhe Bator was key Communits figure, why would democratic Mongolia go back to Communits icon?

Still, I am curious how the new Sukhe Bator order looks like. The question is whether what we see for sale on eBay and new official award is the same subject matter.

And if the award's so recent, why did we already observe several Sukhe Bators for sale? Has some one been stealing the highest award of Mongolia from the manufacturer?

William

[Dolf]

William,

First you state that according to a reliable source "these Orders are "probably not currently issued", which means that people are not being awarded with this new type of the Order."

This is not at all what I said! Either my English is very poor, although I try my best, or we have a problem of communication, or else...
On my Post #75 I stated that I had final confirmation that these new S-B Orders really exist, because so far that was the only information I had, as I added on my Post #77.
The sentence "Probably not currently issued" was of my own, just my thoughts, because that's what I assumed then, before having more info.
I never said then that "according to a reliable source "these Orders are "probably not currently issued"".

Only when I had more trustworthy & reliable & 100% accurate info I posted it on my Post #78.
Only then I had confirmation that they are being manufactured by the former State mint and therefore they are official!

Then you quote Japanese news agency that this new "variation" was awarded just last Thursday, Dec 8th 2005.

That info was also available on a Mongolian Online News!
And my sources confirm it was published in Mongolian newspapers!
I don't thing they would "confuse one award with another".

And I didn't say that the Japanese news ever mentioned he was awarded precisely with this "new variation" of the Order!
Although I guess it's only logical, because the old ones aren't being manufactured anymore, and this new brass variation is, as I say on my Post #78. As the new variation was established this last summer it seems obvious to me that these are the Orders that are being awarded now. And they are being awarded, either you believe it or not!

Anyway, on my Post #79 I also mentioned another source with a link, and the title on Google, but you don't seem interested in that one although you might help because I believe it's writen in Cyrilic.

This is what I just managed to find from MONTSAME-NEWS (a Mongolian online news I believe), this time in english:

ASASHORYU AWARDED WITH SUKHBAATAR MEDAL Ulaanbaatar, /MONTSAME/. Under the order of the Mongolian President, Asashoryu D.Dagvadorj, a state honored athlete of Mongolia and the Grand Champion of the Japanese professional sumo, has been awarded with the Sukhbaatar medal--the state top award.

Check it here:

http://www.montsame.mn/newssearch.php?cm...=&x=16&y=7

Until we have official document - nothing is proven with certainty.

As I also mentioned on my Post #78, the fact that these new Orders are being awarded only since last summer, and only a very few have been awarded, it makes it almost impossible to have one of those Docs now! But I guess and hope we will see one soon, perhaps in the near future.

PS: as for calling this "new verion" junk - it looks like junk to me, as well as to any collector who handled real Sukhe Bator order.

I have the older two Types, screwback and pinback on my collection, so I handled them enough to know how they are and look.
I hope to have soon in my hands one or two of this new brass type, so I'll be able to compare them, but as I also mention on another older Post on this thread, we can't obviously compare gold and silver with brass! As we can't compare a Ferrari with a Lada!

In the end - if you want to pay higher prices for questionable pieces than for authentic ones - it's your decision. I'd rather buy something else.

But then again these new Orders obviously don't cost the same as the old ones!
I don't think you can find today one of those old ones in gold and silver (either the screwback or the pinback) for less than $1,500.00 or so, but I'm sure one can have one of this new brass type for some $500.00 or even less!
The last one of these I saw on eBay sold for $800.00 but that buyer probably didn't know what to do with his money! Not my case!

As for calling them "junk", well that is your opinion.
I recently had in my hands a few East Germany awards, and if I was to compare them with Soviet or Mongolian awards, I guess I could also call them "junk" or "cheap stuff" (which I don't althought their quality is indeed very poor compared to the other awards just mentioned) but there are plenty of people collecting these awards! Some people even collect matchboxes, but that doesn't give me the right to call that "junk".


Finally, all I see you doing about this matter is systematically deny and question everything I say about this, nothing else!
At least I'm trying to find out what's true or not about this issue, I'm doing research and asking questions (if possible I'll try to obtain the official Mongolian legislation about these new Orders, althought I think it will be very hard to get), I'm trying to bring something positive to the thread (either you like or accept it or not), I'm even ordering a couple of these pieces (most probably only for analyse them and not exactly to add them to my collection as anyway I already have the old ones so that's good enough, but if I didn't have those old ones I might keep one for me, why not) so I can handle them and come to my own conclusions. I believe my approach is constructive on this matter and so far yours has been only destructive!

All you have been bringing to this issue is an overdose of scepticism and denial, and imho that doesn't help!

So I guess that (for the good of the Forum I don't want to transform this into a personal discussion) the best thing for me to do concerning this discussion with you is to simply rest my case, at least until you bring something positive!

Dolf, Jan,

You could be right after all, in fact that Mongolian government introduced new Sukhe Bator order. I just find it odd - Sukhe Bator was key Communist figure, why would democratic Mongolia go back to Communist icon?

William

We may also say that Genghis Khan was a bloodthirsty, murderous and cruel barbarian, but that didn't impede the new democratic Mongolian authorities to adopt the Order of Genghis Khan as the new highest Order of Mongolia in 2002!

And if the award's so recent, why did we already observe several Sukhe Bators for sale? Has some one been stealing the highest award of Mongolia from the manufacturer?

I guess you didn't read careful where I already answered to that question:

"The pieces awarded by the Mongolian State are numbered. Those not numbered we occasionally see for sale lately, have most probably been smuggled out by some mint employee(s), and of course have not been awarded to people."

I will only add that I believe that in the future these not numbered Orders will be even more valuable than the new numbered ones, as these not numbered will certainly be even more rare!

From the Mongolian news agency Montsame:

08.12.2005 ASASHORYU AWARDED WITH SUKHBAATAR ORDER

Ulaanbaatar, /MONTSAME/. Under the order of the Mongolian President, Asashoryu D.Dagvadorj, a state honored athlete of Mongolia and the Grand Champion of the Japanese professional sumo, has been awarded with the Sukhbaatar order--the state top award. Asashoryu D.Dagvadorj won 15 times a victory at the sumo tournaments. At his meeting with D.Dagvadorj, the President Mr. N.Enkhbayar said The Mongolian people are proud of you - the Champion of the Japanese sumo. The main quality of athletes is to reach their goals. As you bravely promised, you have won the victory аt all competitions of this year . The President wished the Champion high successes in the upcoming competitions. B. Bolortuya

Still, not an official doc :rolleyes:
Jan

Jan,

Thank you very much for your help on this and for bringing something constructive and positive to the thread! :) ;)

Dolf

[new world]

Dolf,

first of all, no need to assault me personally. All I said was related to the specific award, I never said anything against you as an individual. On the other hand, you have already crossed the line and turned this discussion into something personal.

Second, this is open forum and you we all come here to express our opinions. My point of view is different from yours, and that's the beauty of this board.

Third, I trying to get to the bottom of the issue. I have my "scepticism" and we all should have good dose of which while collecting, otherwise our collections would be full of worthless fakes and questionable pieces.

Finally, so far we evidence you present is mostly based on news reports and hearsay. I'm looking for specific facts backed up by the documentation or official releases, which I guess we will not have for a while.

Dolf, why don't you relax, take this easy and engage in any research you want in your spare time. It seems that besides you and me very few folks are even interested in this topic. As for myself - I will be perfectly fine even if you don't convince me :)

William

[Dolf]

Gentlemen,

For those interested, here is one of these new brass Type Order of S-B.

The #4 on the reverse is NOT a S/N, just a mark with a pen for personal identification that can easily be erased.

I must confess I've seen other countries awards looking much cheaper!
IMHO, not that bad after all!

Dolf

[kingsnorth]

I've got a couple of the latest brass awards and in my humble opinion they are not as good as the old silver versions. Being a keen collector I will still buy them but not for silly money.

[Dolf]

Kingsnorth,

I completely agree with you, as I previously mentioned "...we can't obviously compare gold and silver with brass! As we can't compare a Ferrari with a Lada!"

:cheers

Dolf

[rboomsma]

Hello Dolf

Keep up the good work on digging up info on this new variation.
I for one is interested.

Gentlemen,

For those interested, here is one of these new brass Type Order of S-B.

The #4 on the reverse is NOT a S/N, just a mark with a pen for personal identification that can easily be erased.

I must confess I've seen other countries awards looking much cheaper!
IMHO, not that bad after all!

Dolf

[Dolf]

Hello Dolf

Keep up the good work on digging up info on this new variation.
I for one is interested.

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the kind and encouraging words :thumbsup

It's hard to dig deeper on this buddy, the info is too slow to come and not easy to obtain.
Unless I paid a visit to Mongolia myself, but that's not on my plans :)

Anyway, I'll keep trying to get whatever new info I can, we are at least three (or four ;) ) interested in this issue, so I guess it's worth while the time and energy spent on this quest.

Dolf

[Esteban_cool]

Asashoryu receives honor in Mongolia

Friday, December 9, 2005 at 07:32 JST
ULAN BATOR — Mongolian grand champion Asashoryu received yet another honor Thursday when he was awarded the Order of Sukhbaatar in his homeland for making sumo history.

Dolf

Aw my god!! I just wanted to see that on TV!!! :banghead
Asashoryu appears more than twice a day on the japanese news programs, and I just missed when he was awarded the SB...

[medals73]

There is also a nasty post-socialist "economy design", though it isn't clear whether this has ever been awarded (we may hope it is never awarded).

Type 3.1 -- coarse brass manufacture, numbered -- observed serial number range Low = ??/High = 2057 (though this may be later addition?)

Type 3.2 -- coarse brass manufacture, unnumbered