here you can read some about it.
indeed it is not in the 1988 uniform reg (red) book.
i was told there was a suplement of a few orders to the 1988 uniform reg's in 1989.
one of them was supposed to be the reintroduction of the gray walking out cap.
this makes a lot of sense since there are a awfull lot of red banded undated with late buttons around. they are one of the most common cap's around.
in this time there was only the blue banded and red banded version for the army.
non have turned out to be fakes, but just left over stock of very late production.
it is hard to tell the difference ,, it is a feel.
the material of a m89 one is some what less in quality and the sowing of the inside and such isn't as need.
the bullion some say has a difference either.
but still the only difference that really works for me time and time again , is that the m89 one's are almost all undated.
12-24-2009, 08:21 PM (This post was last modified: 12-24-2009, 08:26 PM by charlet.)
I don't believe these caps are soviet. In the best hypothesis, they're transitionnal models, as specified in the 1992-1993 years decrets. My russian can't help me to understand what I believe to be a proof: see p.194 of the A. Kibovskii/A.Stepanov/K.Tsiplenkov "Uniforms of the russian federation air fleet".
In the worst hypothesis, the factories made them following the 1992 sketches, but they were never worn and all caps went to the tourists.
I don't follow the explanations given in the website "undertheredstar" as it is not totally reliable, despite nice efforts to be comprehensive: see for example the KGB general parade visor cap which never existed.
I can try to post some scans of this really good book, and we could push further the debate.
Sebastien
"a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism"
(a well-known german bearbed)
charlet Wrote:grey visor caps with service cap bullion do not exist in the regulations... do you have an explanation?
Neither does the aviation parade caps with service cap bullion. Some talk about transition, other about M/89. Still they exist in pics - like this oil painting of Aleksander Lebed!
Notice the disregard for belt placement regulations :)
I, for one, would not take a painting as the basis for determination of whether something was worn in a prescribed way or not, or was even worn at all. It is well known (and documented) that artists often took "artistic freedom", even in such highly regulated environments as the former USSR.
i cant be sure there was a regulation for the gray walking out cap with service bullion. i only got that from somebody els who did not back it up with evidence it could see. but he made the point about a few new orders as a supplement to the m88 reg's.
still i would not think they were just made for collectors. as this cap has always buttons of 88-92 and always has every thing right according to other general caps of the period.
i have seen a picture once that was of a general wearing a walking out dress uniform with the gray cap in 1990, it was dated by a flag of a congress with date on it in the back ground. i don't know again where i saw it. i don't have it.
Lapa Wrote:I, for one, would not take a painting as the basis for determination of whether something was worn in a prescribed way or not, or was even worn at all. It is well known (and documented) that artists often took "artistic freedom", even in such highly regulated environments as the former USSR.
Marc
i would agree with you on this lapa.
but in this particular painting the artist has every medal and ribbon what so ever right.
it is straight on , and i cant find any thing wrong about it.
i have seen a sample of such a non reg cap and i must say it is stunning.
further more i would see no point of downgrading the bullion on a cap.
Lapa Wrote:I, for one, would not take a painting as the basis for determination of whether something was worn in a prescribed way or not, or was even worn at all. It is well known (and documented) that artists often took "artistic freedom", even in such highly regulated environments as the former USSR.
Marc
Well - On a general basis I agree with the "artistic freedom", It is of course just a "painting", but as Ser-g say, all other details are very accurate so why should this artist decide to change only this small cap detail? If the cap would be totally bogus, wouldn't it be too much of a coincidence that a painter would decide to use this very pattern for a painting?
Ser-g Wrote:i have seen a sample of such a non reg cap and i must say it is stunning. further more i would see no point of downgrading the bullion on a cap.
I own such a cap, and the embroideries are excellent. If I understand your last statement right, you ask why this kind of caps were developed. Assuming they are real, and this is just my speculations - would be to create a cap for the parade-walkout uniform so that the parade visor cap would again be for parade uniform purposes only. Just my thoughts.
Tretov Wrote:...so why should this artist decide to change only this small cap detail? If the cap would be totally bogus, wouldn't it be too much of a coincidence that a painter would decide to use this very pattern for a painting?
...Btw, the painting is from 1995...
Patrik,
Given those exerts from your previous message, one can easily understand why we can't rely 100% on this picture: it was painted several years afterward, and even though the medals are accurately depicted (there is not much room for "poetic license" here), the uniform/cap issue remains IMO.
The cap pattern is not bogus in itself, it did exist earlier; it may even have been brought back later on, after the fall of the Evil Empire. But this is not a definite proof that these caps are late Soviet, and I for one have always been reluctant to consider them so.
One thing to remember is that when the USSR folded, there were lots of spare parts left (and not only of recent vintage, by the way), an nagging, ongoing need to put bread on the table, and a whole new market full of eager collectors...
